Do you consider 4e D&D "newbie teeball"?

[catsclaw227]

I was reading the thread on Third Party support and I came across this post.

I really found that D&D always threw DMs into the deep end and seemed to think "ok, you're a great DM if you can survive that".

Kinda like baseball? The rules of baseball don't change just because you are new. You might play tee-ball to learn some, but you move on to baseball as soon as you can. If 4E is the beginner game and WotC has a secret plan to release a game for experienced DMs in the near future, then I take everything back. But 4E is still newbie teeball no matter how long you play.

Some part of me snapped and I wanted to scream, as I felt the response was not only a poor analogy but was simultaneously condescending and insulting of 4e DMs.

But then I realized that I should step out of my self and re-evaluate my reaction. I am not so personally offended anymore (whatever, dude), but it did make me look at the parts of 4e that are both easy and/or simple and the parts of 4e that are hard and/or complex.

I believe that 4e has provided tools to new DMs (DMG and DMG2, DDI) that make it easier to "get in the game", to get their feet wet and get behind the screen. There's a fair amount of support online and its easy to get DMing advice (like most other mainstream RPGs)

But I see a fair amount of complexity in 4e, some wonderful role-playing opportunities, and balance between complex relationships (with rules) and simplicity in the design.

But to call it teeball for D&D players? That's absurd.

What parts of 4e D&D do you find complex or deep, and what parts of 4e do you find to be good for new players and DMs? Or do you agree with ByronD, that 4e D&D is a child's game (newbie teeball)?

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Despite the fact that I don't like 4Ed as a substitute for 3.X, it is in no way "D&D teeball Ed"

 

[BryonD]

You have left critically important parts of the conversation out.

 

[Votan]

But I see a fair amount of complexity in 4e, some wonderful role-playing opportunities, and balance between complex relationships (with rules) and simplicity in the design.

But to call it teeball for D&D players? That's absurd.

What parts of 4e D&D do you find complex or deep, and what parts of 4e do you find to be good for new players and DMs? Or do you agree with ByronD, that 4e D&D is a child's game (newbie teeball)?

I think it depends on what your metric is. Late 3.5E had a lot of issues of complexity (number of books, interactions between feats, classes, races) and system mastery really mattered. They also appeared to have "traps" for beginners (like toughness, as a feat, compared to the alternatives).

I much prefer lower levels of complexity and I think system mastery scares of newcomers. Remember, friendly to new players does not mean that the system isn't good.

But that could just be me.

 

[thecasualoblivion]

You have left critically important parts of the conversation out.

Care to fill us in then?

 

[UngainlyTitan]

I am Irish and I have no idea what Teeball is, though I do get the impression that it is a simplified game.
I do not regard 4e as particularly simplified and the help in the DMG and elsewhere is good because the help is extensive with lots of examples.

The xp for an encounter makes it easier to create a balanced encounter than 3.x but that is only a small part of the equation.
3.x's problem was in two parts, one the CR was a bit hit and miss and the other problem is that at high levels a monster could have a page or special effects that all referenced other material and in the heat of the fray the DM would forget half of the powers.

The other problem 3.x had was there was a lot of rules in the DMG and so less room on exposition as to how to run a game.

4e still has the issue of the tactical ability of the DM vs that of the party though that can be mitigated somewhat by throwing more monsters at the party, since that tactic is not as lethal as it might be in 3.x

Where 4e scores is that it has a whole book on how to run a session and a campaign and a lot of advice on encounter design and such and fairly clear exposition on how the numbers work.

 

[Tallifer]

You have left critically important parts of the conversation out.

The context of the phrase "newbie tee-ball" is amply provided by your condescending signature which implies that 4th edition Dungeons and Dragons lacks intelligent conversation. Or at least that players and dungeon masters who prefer 4th edition cannot conduct such.

 

[rogueattorney]

Frankly, I'm to the point where I think that any rpg that can't get its core rules stated in about 120 pages isn't trying hard enough. If 4e is tee-ball, I'm just playing catch in the back yard with B/X D&D, Labyrinth Lord, Tunnels & Trolls, and Encounter Critical. I've promised myself to never be bothered with a 600+ page, multi-volume rpg ever again.

So, to answer the OP's question... I don't consider it Tee-ball. I consider it Australian Rules Football. Yes, it's football, and it obviously descended from the same Rugby-ish game every other type of football descended from... But, it's certainly not the football I grew up playing, and I find much of it quite odd. I'm sure its fans like it very much, and I hope they have a great time with it.

 

[RefinedBean]

I am Irish and I have no idea what Teeball is, though I do get the impression that it is a simplified game.

It's like baseball, only without a pitcher. Batters basically walk up to a little "tee" that's holding the ball, and swing at it.

Imagine if you couldn't tackle someone in rugby, and every scrum was decided with Rock-Paper-Scissors.

Anyway, any RPG system is hard to learn and complex, in relation to simpler games. There's a reason that RPGs aren't mainstream, and never will be. People would rather have all that math done instantly by a computer.

 

[Votan]

Frankly, I'm to the point where I think that any rpg that can't get its core rules stated in about 120 pages isn't trying hard enough.

Hear, hear. Dense and insightful text is undervalued in the modern world but is a major advantage in a rules system. Rather like how computer operating systems need to be streamlined to make running other software (the analogy would be the adventures) easier.