Do you consider 4e D&D "newbie teeball"?

[Herschel]

Thats interesting, because my experience is the opposite. I play a sixth level Cleric/ MC Fighter in a weekly 4e game, and have been slogging through hundreds of feats and powers and Paragon Paths in the Compendium to try to figure out which combinations will synergize best through Paragon Tier. The combinations are endless, and although any combination will work, I hate feeling like I'm missing some better feat/power interplay that would make the character--not optimal--but truly useful to the group.

The retraining mechanic is a wonderful addition/reimagining in 4E. The options in 3E were seemingly far more, and flexibility when noticed was far less. Now one can explore different options to see how they work in actual play yet may still dump them when they don't perform as well in tier or in general.

Example: My first Assault Swordmage. Even the at-wills have numerous options, yes, but retraining was a Godsend. On paper, Lightning Lure really looked like junk, so I all but ignored it. Then in play I began to see where it would have been extremely useful. I retrained in to it and found it far better than I had ever imagined so long as I was thinking and using it creatively. Without that mechanic, I could easily have missed out on the best at-will in the game. Simply crunching a few numbers simply did not give me the initial data needed to make a truly informed decision on the usefulness of the power.

The stat boost mechanic also opens up a number of options. If one straight mins/maxs one's primary/secondary stats and essentially dump the rest, then one loses a little flexibility too but one can alleviate it somewhat with the boosts as one progresses.

That doesn't mean it takes less thought, it just alleviates the need for anal-retentive analysis at character creation.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Absolutely.

Where there seems to be a difference of opinion is in the proper response to a mechanical failure.

If the engine just doesn't run, period, under any circumstances, then you need a new engine.

If the engine fails because the operator keeps redlining it, then you have two options:

a) You explain to the operator that redlining the engine is going to be detrimental to its performance over time, but you nevertheless leave the engine alone so that the operator can have that extra performance if he wants or needs it;

b) You assume that all operators are going to continue redlining the engine, and so you put a governor on the engine to prevent it from going above the ideal speed.

What's with
c) You build a better engine that gives the performance the operator needs?

 

[avin]

Do I think this is a decent soundbite for the subgroup of 3E haters who are now 4E fans? Yeah. Does it represent every individual? Hell no.

But it is a snapshot of how I perceive the center of mass of the appeal of 4E vs 3E. If added simplicity and rawr rawr are the start and the end of the improvements for the "new" fans, then that is a shame.

You know, I like most of your posts (even giving you XP!), I have my own restrictions to 4E fluff and metagaming... but, man, your signature ring like every 4E player or DM is a "POW POW POW MOAR DUNGOENZ"... which is not true...

It's a pretty belligerant sig and I think you know that...

 

[nightwyrm]

The retraining mechanic is a wonderful addition/reimagining in 4E. The options in 3E were seemingly far more, and flexibility when noticed was far less. Now one can explore different options to see how they work in actual play yet may still dump them when they don't perform as well in tier or in general.

I totally agree. Retraining mechanic is one of the best thing to have been included as part of the levelling structure. It alleviates the need to perfectly plan out your character lv 1 to 30 and gives a lot more room to experiment. Very newbie friendly too.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

What's with
c) You build a better engine that gives the performance the operator needs?

That's what I do.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

That's what I do.

And you've got a trademark on that?

Dang.

 

[jdrakeh]

Regardless of what you say, intentional or not, your sig is taking a shot at 4E fans, and since it is your sig you take a shot at 4E fans every time you post.

It's intentionally insulting. I refuse to believe otherwise as BryonD has made it quite clear on numerous occasions that he thinks 4e caters to the mentally deficient. He's simply incapable of talking about the game without insulting its players.

 

[Umbran]

I think we are done here.