Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

Do you find the Mystic Theurge overpowered?

  • Extremely overpowered

    Votes: 61 17.8%
  • Overpowered

    Votes: 68 19.9%
  • Mildly overpowered

    Votes: 86 25.1%
  • Normal for a PrC

    Votes: 124 36.3%
  • It's WEAK!

    Votes: 3 0.9%

Cleric/Sorceror/MT is broken

Cleric/Sorceror/MT is broken. Plain and Simple.

Don't forget that our sorceror can take the still spell feat, and spontaneously cast all of his spells as stilled if he wants to wear armor.

Yes, the Cleric/Sorceror/MT will have three less sorceror casting levels than a pure sorceror.

However, he (or she) will have armor profiency, a martial weapon profiency for his (or her) God(dess)'s favored weapon, two domain powers, and lots of clerical spellcasting. The turn undead won't be very powerful (but it can still be used to power divine feats) and the familiar won't have all the extra abilities.

The clerical spellcasting completely eliminates the major limitation on sorcerors (lack of spell choices).

Domains: hmmm, I think Luck will be one domain. Probably Travel for the other domain (immunity to hold/web spells).

Tom
 

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Re: Cleric/Sorceror/MT is broken

Endur said:
Cleric/Sorceror/MT is broken. Plain and Simple.

No it's not. A Cleric/Sorceror/MT will NEVER get 9th level spells in a non-epic game, even if he only takes the 3 level minimum in cleric.

Also, he's even worse off at lower levels than a Cleric/Wizard/MT. He'd be an 8th level spellcaster who's best attack spell would be Magic Missile!

Again, there is absolutely no way I would ever play this class in a campaign that started at low levels.
 

Gez said:


Compared to a wizard, the class may seem powerful. Compared to a cleric, it's trully weak. Yet all classes are supposed to be balanced. Explain. :rolleyes:


Because Clerics are not balanced against other classes at any level - they're significantly more powerful, as many people have noted.
 

Quinn said:


I wouldn't mind hearing your reasoning about why the PrC is balanced a bit more. I don't think you'd be hiring Sean Reynolds or Monte Cook based on their answers. ;)

I wouldn't necessarily base my hiring on the final answer, but more based on how they frame that answer. Both SKR and Monte have addressed concerns that are important and point out their mastery of the system.

There's a few things that make me look at the MT as a balanced option. One of them is based on the raw, number-crunching aspect of game design. This is the part that most people see as important. That's true, but it's only half the equation. The other half is player expectation. Most of the time, this factor is embedded in the first one, but sometimes it can leap out and clobber the math and balance behind the game.

One of the important parts of balancing anything is what I see as the "What do you do now?" factor. Basically, a character can only do one thing each round. If you take two characters, face them off against each other, and one character has better options over the course of the typical D&D encounter (6 or so rounds) then that character is more powerful. This is where the MT has big problems. Sure, he has lots and lots of spells, but at any given moment a spellcaster who stuck to one class has a better, more useful spell available. In the typical party of four (fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard) the mystic theurge doesn't displace anyone. At any level, his best spell comes up short. What he can do is provide lots of buff spells for the rest of the party. But, since he is terrible in combat (d4 hp, worst BAB progression) once he uses those spells he doesn't have much left to offer. Generally, it's best to have the cleric burn spells to improve the party and let the wizard keep his magic for combat, since the cleric can always wade into combat with his mace. The MT does shine in the middle to late portions of an adventure, when the other casters have gone through spells, but at that point he still doesn't have the firepower available to overpower anyone. The raw number of spells is nice, but the offset in SR-defeating ability makes up for that. Over any given encounter, a wizard is going to outgun the MT against similar monsters.

The second half of the equation, and IMO the more important one in this case, is the issue of history. In 1e and 2e, multiclassed spellcasters were a viable option. The odd thing with 3e is that these classes have suddenly become much less useful. One of the issues I have with the multiclass rules is that not all class levels are created equal, yet they are treated equally under the rules. The first level of ranger or barbarian is more valuable than the first level of wizard. This causes problems with a lot of multiclass archetypes, many of which have their root in 1e and 2e. Since veteran players expect these options to be open (and heck, they're fun to play) it makes sense to support them.

History is a powerful force in game design. You can't simply take a viable character type that's been around since the late 70s and drop it from the game. I think prestige classes are the best way to get around the issue of multiclass restrictions, since they solve the problem of not all class choices being equal at higher levels. Personally, I'd like to see more prestige classes like this, ones with little flavor but a distinct, mechanical focus that makes multiclass characters more viable.
 

Huge Difference

The realm of phb and dm, especially dm options are 2 distinct places.

In 2e I could decide I wanted to play an elf wizard/cleric.

In 3.5e I could decide to play a wizard/cleric, and IF my dm allows the use of prestige classes, I could, at a point later in my career, catch up to the rest of the party, and possibly surpass them if I stuck it out the whole 10 levels.

I also have 1 option as to which prc I want, and the mixing of wiz/clr levels.

Take the "arcane fighter" archetype. There are 4 fighter base-types that can be mixed with each other for varying effectiveness as well as 3 different arcane magic using types which can also be mixed, and a very healthy number of prcs out there. I can customize to my heart's desire.

The 3.5e "patch" of fixing the "cleric/wizard" archetype is to confine you to 1 prc. Personally, I'd rather not have the "patch" and just have better multi-classing rules, no offense to anyone. I have created a few feats which emulate what the mystic theurge does over in house rules, take a look:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46958

Technik
 

Re: Huge Difference

Technik4 said:
Personally, I'd rather not have the "patch" and just have better multi-classing rules, no offense to anyone.
That seems to be a common feeling, which I agree with. The real question is whether it's possible to acceptably change the multi-classing rules without radically changing the way spellcasting or multiclassing works. I suspect not. 3.5 is just a revision, not a rebuild from the ground up.
 

mearls said:



One of the important parts of balancing anything is what I see as the "What do you do now?" factor. Basically, a character can only do one thing each round. If you take two characters, face them off against each other, and one character has better options over the course of the typical D&D encounter (6 or so rounds) then that character is more powerful.

I thought the D&D balance system was based off of the party mechanic, not who can beat down who in arena combat. The Mystic Theurge, in a party of four or more characters, would be incredibly powerful. Forget the one on one aspect, and consider what the Mystic Theurge can do for a party.

He can heal, he can blast, he can buff, he can teleport, he can commune, he can fulfill almost every aspect of either a Cleric or a Wizard, and he can fully fulfill the aspect of the other. Irregardless of whether or not he'd win in a one on one combat, the class can do so much for the rest of the party it doesn't really matter. And I also don't like the power curve the class presents. But that's already been covered.
 

Then lets make a comparison, shall we?

4 party members.

Traditional fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric

Now.

Fighter, rogue, theurge, theurge

or

Fighter, rogue, theurge, cleric

or

Fighter, rogue, theurge, wizard

Sound about right?

Which party is stronger? I can see the parties being different, but I don't think either one is guaranteed to be stronger than the other. Some have more staying power, others have more instant utility. That's all.

So much for the "a mystic theurge unbalances the party" argument.

So what if the theurge can fill more than one spot? He is always inferior at filling the spot than other classes.
 
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Nope. He's more potent. Has more spells per day. Can heal. Can buff. Can bam.

I see no redeaming value in this. I've heard many arguments to the contrary, but none of them hold any weight. It's more potent than mixed-caster classes that already exist. And after 20th Level, it's appearant cost is minimized to being insignificant.
 

You just don't get it.

He heals. Worse than a cleric.
He buffs. Worse than a cleric.
He bams. Worse than a mage.

The fact that he's better than a multiclassed wizard/cleric is immaterial (because ANYTHING is better than a wiz/cle multi). The fact that he combines the two in a more effective way than (say) geomancer is also immaterial, because a geomancer combines the two in a completely different way.

It's like saying still spell is a broken feat, because someone who wants to create a heavily-armoured arcane caster virtually HAS to have it.

He only HAS to have it because he's creating such a specialised character. It doesn't mean that the feat is essential for every character. Likewise, this PrC is ONLY essential for someone who wants to produce a wiz/cle multiclass. If you want a straight arcane blaster, then it's worthless or worse.

And keep epic out of it. 3 caster levels STILL matter at epic, insofar as anything matters at epic levels.
Hell, why don't we just say that taking 20 levels of wizard is pointless? After all, epic levels are effectively infinite, so that 20 levels of caster are diminished to nothing eventually.
 
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