does a nice, shy, meek guy have a chance in hell?

fusangite · Nov 14, 2005

reveal said:
If this is true, no, you don't have a chance in hell.

I say it here. It comes out there.

WhimsyTheFae · Nov 14, 2005

Wow, I think that Rel and Teflon Billy should start a business with the sorts of common sense advice that I've seen on these boards.

Anyway, I'll second the need to get out there and get shot down. Like everything in life, practice will help you get better.

Borrowing from Rel's lead, I've also had a few pieces of good advice from my father (sadly, he died just before I turned 18, so my younger brothers missed out on some of it - it isn't the same coming from an older brother):

"You can't catch any fish if your line isn't in the water" - get out there and try.

"Women aren't an object of desire, they are people and like to be talked to as such" - get to know them, be their friend, stop drooling.

"Punch him square in the nose and he'll think twice." - oops, that one may not apply here

Oh my, I almost forgot another one - not my dad's, but good advice from a Tae-Kwon-Do instructor: "You don't learn as much by winning as you do by losing. Get your butt kicked a few times and you will learn what you need to do if you want to prevent it in the future." - a fighting analogy, but it is applicable to many areas of life.

LostSoul · Nov 14, 2005

Rel said:
And then when she turns you down and sends you away, go home and feel the depression of being shot down instead of the far worse feeling that you never even tried. Then get up the next morning and go do it again. And again. Until you get a date. And when that relationship fails in its infancy go do it again.

I'm going to say that I don't think this is great advice.

There are times when the pain from failure is worse than the pain from not trying. All you do is reinforce your own idea that you are going to fail, and the more times it happens the stronger that idea gets, and that makes failure more probable, repeat.

I'd suggest starting off small. I think AA has some kind of rule about not dating for a long time after you get sober. The idea is to get comfortable with yourself first. That's what you gotta do.

So take some small risks (whatever those risks are for you - maybe it's just going for a walk, maybe it's climbing a mountain) and start off there. Once you get used to failing - and succeeding - at something, your confidence will grow to the point where you can try things you couldn't before. Then you can build a self-reinforcing pattern that builds and builds confidence until you are able to do the things you want (and when you get there, I'll bet you'll be surprised that women won't be such a big deal).

This will take a long time even if you work really hard at it. Figure about a year if you're in therapy, more if you're not. The only good thing is that you will be able to see things getter better - not over the days, or even the weeks, but month-to-month things will improve. A journal would help you actually take notice of the progress you're making that you'd normally ignore, since you spend all of your time with yourself and the changes are so gradual that you won't notice it until something big happens.

Rel · Nov 14, 2005

fusangite said:
For this reason, I would suggest there are two classes of activity for looking at confidence building through flooding/exposure: (a) those activities where one can succeed despite being exceptionally anxious and (b) those activities in which it is impossible to succeed if one is exceptionally anxious. Most activities such as non-romantic social interaction, public speaking, etc. fall into category (a); however, a small minority of activities like dating and swimming fall into category (b).

Why are you so anxious after all these years? You're no newb at this rejection gig, fusangite. You've been (by your own admission) being rejected for YEARS. What's so special about the next girl that makes the prospect of her rejecting you more than boring? I'm not suggesting that being jaded is more attractive than being anxious...wait, yes I am.

It falls well within the Teflon Billy rules that if your approach to a woman says that you really don't much give a rip whether she shows interest or not, your attractiveness goes up by an order of magnitude. Maybe you're simply too in awe of your targets (or the image of them that you've built up in your mind) to pull this off. If so then your solution is simple. You need to set your sights lower.

I've often said (though rarely around my wife) that if I had it to do all over again, I'd have dated (and probably slept with) a lot more marginally attractive girls when I was back in high school. I've learned about myself as I've gotten older that I find most women attractive. Not all girls are knockouts but I tend to see their best features and not notice their less attractive ones so much.

Back in the day, I would fixate on these beautiful, unobtainable girls for the longest time. I had no clue that so many "average" girls were sitting home alone on Friday nights being miserable and desperate (like me). And horny (like me). What an amazing untapped (ahem) resource!

My point is this: If you wish to lower your percentage of rejection (from where it stands presently at 100%) then approach women who aren't so used to rejecting guys. Were I in your position I'd probably join a dating service. Go on bunches of dates. Go until it's boring and you dread the next one. Voila! You've achieved desensitization! You no longer give a damn and suddenly you become a hot item.

But I think it is a real mistake to tell Aaron that if he keeps trying he will eventually succeed because (a) he will continue expecting that happiness is something that will come to him from an external source rather than something that will come from within himself and (b) not everybody who tries does make it in the end; I know it's a big part of American national mythology to peddle that idea but it's just not true; what Aaron wants is worth working for but not something that is guaranteed to people as some kind of entitled payoff for hard work.

I don't think I said that it was guaranteed to pay off. Only that if you don't try then it's guaranteed NOT to pay off.

Rel, Rel buddy -- it's me! It's me! Ignore the strawman, talk to me.

The lottery thing was not a strawman so much as an analogy. My point is there are (at least) two ways to get rich: Work for it or win the lottery. One method has a higher rate of success than the other.

For the record, I feel very invested in your success or failure because you were one of my favorite ENWorlders before I met you and meeting you at GenCon only made me like you more. And that's not just because you let me help you kill that bottle of Scotch.

Kid Charlemagne · Nov 14, 2005

Rel said:
And that's not just because you let me help you kill that bottle of Scotch.

Maybe Fusangite can try that for his next quota-meeting-attempt....

Scotley · Nov 14, 2005

Okay, how about some concrete suggestions in no particular order:

Address what sounds like a case of depression. Most docs hand out anti-depressants like candy; although, I suspect some therapy might be helpful.

Build your skills--a google search will reveal many 'how to be successful with women' suggestions as well as books, videos and so forth. Its an oldie, but a goodie--read 'How to win friends and influence people' by Dale Carnegie. I don't know what you do for a living, but perhaps your job will pay you to take some one and two day courses on dealing with people and/or sales.

As others have said, change your hobbies. Go back to school. get involved with a church. Find a volunteer organization that is popular with women and spend some time there.

Stop trying to find that lifelong partner. I swear women can smell despiration and it turns them off. If you meet a women and start trying to name your kids before you even go out she's going to sense that. Set a modest goal of just going out on a date.

Try online dating services. You must see ads for several every day if you check your inbox and surf the web.

As others have said look at your life and start trying to build something good without a partner.

If you try all that and still don't have success, take a trip to Nevada or Amsterdam (where it is legal) and seek professional help. Get over that physical hurdle of saying to yourself 'I've never even been kissed.' A good romp might be good for your confidence as well.

Good luck! One final thing, you are not alone. I know several people male and female with similar situations. I also know several people who thought they had found what you are looking for only to have it end in messy divorce or break up. Count yourself lucky that you don't have some evil vindictive ex out there somewhere taking a third of your income. I didn't get married until my 30's and now have a wonderful wife three kids, a house, and the adoration of more pets than I can count.