Does anyone miss the generic cleric?

[diaglo]

Actually, they match up in part with Turpin from Song of Roland, and the other part matches up with the stories of people like Moses and Elijah.

What would you say is the archetypal holy man? because there isn't one, IMO. Fakirs, to Knights Templar, to Buddhist Lamas, to obsidian-knife-weilding-and-heart-carving Aztec high priests, the archetypes are across the map. But I agree, automatic proficiency in heavy armor and all simple weapons still doesn't fit most divine servants - a priest of Aphrodyte with plate mail and a morningstar?

are you sure you weren't in my Original group?

 

[Olgar Shiverstone]

I'd argue the cleric is more a warrior of the divine, or a champion of the divine, than just a servant. In that light, the mechanics match the concept quite well -- though that role is sort of stepped on by the paladin, who is also an alignment-specific champion of the divine.

I do think there is a role for a "servant of the divine" who isn't as much a fighting type -- but then why is that individual adventuring? The adept fills that role somewhat (though the adept's spell list is even wonkier).

If I were to redesign the system, slaying a few sacred cows in the process, I'd probably convert the paladin to a cavalier, filling the "noble knight" role; the current cleric becomes a divine warrior; and a new class fills the more generic divine servant role. I'd envision it much like the MHB Healer class, only customizable for more than one divine role (pehaps a full Healer-like spell list for each domain, pick two and combine them for the character's full spell list).

But then, the healer's pretty weak in comparison to the cleric, and we're back to square one -- no one wants to play the holy man. The current cleric, overall, is a pretty good compromise. You can make just about any sort of holy man with it -- you may not make the most optimal use of the class features, but then, there's no requirement that a character actually use all of the abilities associated with a class.

 

[Ranes]

See, I don't mind the concept of the servant of the divine. But the cleric seems a poor implementation of that. Healing, and heavy armor, and pretty decent combat abilities, and access to weird spells, many of which have a much more arcane "feel" to them?

How does the mechanics of the cleric class (of any edition) actually match up to the concept in question? I just don't really see it.

I raise my hand as having a problem with the concept of the cleric in general. It certainly seems like a D&D-ism to me but it's one of many I can live with. And despite my shameless use of the generic cleric from time to time, my current game has a pantheon, certain clerics who offer worship to different gods at different times and others who dedicate themselves to a single deity.

I think giving the 3E cleric heavy armour proficiency straight off the bat is over-compensating, as is the prevalence of arcane flavoured magic. However, the reason I can get along with them in a fantasy campaign is, because the milieu is so fantastic to begin with, having the cleric occupy a niche within it seems quite reasonable.

 

[JoeBlank]

i have ads on several boards. some years old. it is still my intent to find an OD&D game.

i just might in a couple months. i'll be sure to drunkenly swagger around when i do.

I wanna see some drunkenly swagger.

As our group is about to undergo some changes, I will again state that I am willing to rotate in an OD&D game. Not willing to commit to it exclusively, but would go for every other session, or once per month, or some such.

Run a one-shot on an off weekend, or a weeknight, and see how many of us you can get to show up. Might surprise you.

Now, if the problem is that you want to play, and not DM/referee, that might be more difficult. I don't recall the OD&D rules anywhere near well enough to run a game.

 

[Arani Korden]

Does anyone besides me have a problem with the cleric concept in general; generic or otherwise?

I can't stand them, myself. (Despite the fact that I play clerics far more often than anyone in my local group.) I think they really lock a setting into a particular religious framework, and that framework looks almost nothing like any real-world religious system ever. Remember all the complaints when Dieties and Demigods came out about how Zeus having hit points removed the mystique of the divine? For me, having churches and temples spread throughout the land filled with people who get regular, predictable miracles from Zeus, and can tell if Zeus likes them because if he doesn't, the miracles stop removes much more of the mystique. Zeus can have hit points and still be unpredictable.

I wouldn't mind so much if the spellcasting cleric were a prestige class. Particularly if the class were limited to one cleric at a time per diety, ever.

 

[Desdichado]

That's a good point; in my campaigns, most "clerics" are actually Experts in terms of mechanics.

 

[Brennin Magalus]

What Henry said.

Me three!

 

[Henry]

Remember all the complaints when Dieties and Demigods came out about how Zeus having hit points removed the mystique of the divine? For me, having churches and temples spread throughout the land filled with people who get regular, predictable miracles from Zeus, and can tell if Zeus likes them because if he doesn't, the miracles stop removes much more of the mystique. Zeus can have hit points and still be unpredictable.

I wouldn't mind so much if the spellcasting cleric were a prestige class. Particularly if the class were limited to one cleric at a time per diety, ever.

WoW! What do you do with wizards in that scenario, then? They are just as miraculous as clerics.

 

[Tonguez]

To my mind fantasy 'Clergy' fall broadly speaking into three 'types' - Priest, Crusaders and Divine Champions.

Paladins have the role of Divine Champions of Good (and various PrCs take the role in other faiths)

Clerics are the Crusaders, Temple Guardians and Divine Warriors. Militant Clergy who protect the faithful and otherwise oppose the enemies of the Faith.(The Knights-Templar fit this description, as do the Danites of LDS history)
*NB In a world like DnD where undead, necromancers, demons and evil monsters are a constant threat I think that development of militant clergy is in fact quite likely ie the DnD Cleric is appropriate to the 'setting'

The Priest - which could include, temple priests, friars, village pastors, healers and mad hermits - is sadly is absent from DnD base core classes. Adept/Expert can model this especially if you give them 'Domains'

Arani Korden

I agree that the predictability of spellcasting is a 'problem' of DnD and most RPGS. Divine intervention (ie Clerical spells) are even more problmatic but personally I can't think of any good ways of modelling 'Divine favor' that isn't predictable

 

[woodelf]

So was the generic 1E cleric that the 3E cleric is being compared to. D&D has never had a non-combat cleric - in the official rules, anyway.

I seem to recall an oooold issue of Dragon that had a "cloistered cleric" class, that was meant for the non-combat clerics. I don't remember the details of it, though.

#108, or thereabouts--it's not *that* old. [Using, of course, the "was it before i started reading Dragon?" standard of age. ]