Does anyspell cast the spell as arcane or divine? [2005 thread]

[AuraSeer]

I find it interesting that everyone here has sided with it being arcane; I find it funny because WotC has stated that the spell is a divine spell in all ways.

I say it's arcane because that's what is in the book. I can find no correction in the errata for FRCS or PGF, or in the FAQ. If WotC really has made an official ruling on this, I'd be very interested to see it; please do cite your source when you find it.

This is important, because if it were cast as an arcane spell, then any cleric with the spell domain could enter Mystic Theurge and other PrC's with similar requirements without multiclassing

Quite true, and it's kind of a neat trick. It gets you into MT two levels early, as Clr3/Sor1 (or Clr3/Wiz1). This would make MT almost fully effective as a cleric, at the expense of arcanist power. Looks pretty strong for use within a large party, but still probably suboptimal for a standard four-PC group.

I'd be inclined to leave this as is. Even granting that it could be a problem, IMO the right fix is just to say anyspell cannot fulfill the arcane spellcasting prereqs of a PrC. Then the text of the spell still makes sense as written, without boosting the power of the MT class.

(Note that regular arcanist PrCs don't benefit from the existence of anyspell. It's only useful for those that require levels in both divine and arcane classes, of which there are very few.)

 

[Krafen]

I say it's arcane because that's what is in the book. I can find no correction in the errata for FRCS or PGF, or in the FAQ. If WotC really has made an official ruling on this, I'd be very interested to see it; please do cite your source when you find it.


Quite true, and it's kind of a neat trick. It gets you into MT two levels early, as Clr3/Sor1 (or Clr3/Wiz1). This would make MT almost fully effective as a cleric, at the expense of arcanist power. Looks pretty strong for use within a large party, but still probably suboptimal for a standard four-PC group.

I'd be inclined to leave this as is. Even granting that it could be a problem, IMO the right fix is just to say anyspell cannot fulfill the arcane spellcasting prereqs of a PrC. Then the text of the spell still makes sense as written, without boosting the power of the MT class.

(Note that regular arcanist PrCs don't benefit from the existence of anyspell. It's only useful for those that require levels in both divine and arcane classes, of which there are very few.)

The 3.0 version of True Necromancer was another class greater anyspell helped the character qualify for. The requirement was simply to be able to cast a few, specific, arcane necromancy spells. This allowed entry into the PrC without taking any arcane caster levels. Has the requirement been changed for 3.5 to arcane and divine caster levels?

 

[Gez]

I think it's a bit dumb to enter a double-spellcasting progression with only one spellcasting class anyway.

That said, a cleric-with-anyspell 5/warmage 1 could become a very nasty True Necromancer combo. Cleric spells for the necromancy thing, warmage for general blasting. He even gets to cast his arcane spells in light armor without problems.

Another similar and interesting combo would be with warlock.

 

[Christian]

I think it's a bit dumb to enter a double-spellcasting progression with only one spellcasting class anyway.

Oh, goodness, not at all. To enter Mystic Theurge as a cleric/wizard, for example, you need a minimum of three levels of each. That means you'll always be three caster levels (meaning one or two spell levels at the highest you can cast) behind a straight cleric or wizard as you level up in MT. But if you could get in without multiclassing, then you'd have the same spellcasting ability as a straight cleric, plus a bunch of (admittedly low-level) wizard spells, at the cost of ... less undead turning ability. Ooh, painful ... not. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

 

[Hypersmurf]

But if you could get in without multiclassing, then you'd have the same spellcasting ability as a straight cleric, plus a bunch of (admittedly low-level) wizard spells, at the cost of ... less undead turning ability. Ooh, painful ... not. I'd do that in a heartbeat.

No, you wouldn't. You'd have the same spellcasting ability as a straight cleric, plus less undead turning ability.

Mystic Theurge adds to your spellcasting level in an arcane spellcasting class you already have. If you enter MT as a straight cleric, you have no arcane spellcasting class, so that feature of the PrC is ignored.

You need at least one level in an arcane casting class before you start MT, or as Gez notes, it's pointless.

-Hyp.

 

[Aereas]

Quite true, and it's kind of a neat trick. It gets you into MT two levels early, as Clr3/Sor1 (or Clr3/Wiz1). This would make MT almost fully effective as a cleric, at the expense of arcanist power. Looks pretty strong for use within a large party, but still probably suboptimal for a standard four-PC group.

The 3.0 version of True Necromancer was another class greater anyspell helped the character qualify for. The requirement was simply to be able to cast a few, specific, arcane necromancy spells. This allowed entry into the PrC without taking any arcane caster levels. Has the requirement been changed for 3.5 to arcane and divine caster levels?

A friend and me often use anyspell as a means to get around the requirements. Its a good spell just for the increased versatility, but losing caster levels is a painful thing to any spellcaster. This helps alleviate it. Mystra has also both of our favored deities since 2e

 

[Hawken]

I am the DM for Aereas. He asked if I would let him take levels of Dweomer Keeper (from the Complete Divine web enhancement).

I told him I would allow him to take levels in it providing he took 3 levels of a divine casting class and 3 levels of an arcane casting class. I had not seen or known of this PrC before he asked about it and I made the requirement regarding spellcasting similar in scope to that required by the Mystic Theurge PrC (which also requires three levels in arcane and divine spellcasting classes). Considering it was an unknown PrC to me until this point, I thought that was being generous allowing him to bring an untested PrC into my campaign where he could take up to half of his character levels in the PrC.

The earliest he could take the class with the requirements written as is (simply the ability to cast arcane and divine spells) would be level 5 (also need 8 ranks in Spellcraft and Knowledge--Arcana). With my decision, it only postpones him taking the class for 1 level. Since he would be playing a 12th level character in my game, going by my judgment on the issue, he would still be able to have 6 of the 10 levels in that prestige class.

I am standing by my decision, but I am here checking out this thread at Aereas' request. The only other names here I recognize is Thanee and Hypersmurf and its good to post with you guys again--I've been away from here too long. Hello to the rest of you that I've never posted with (or don't remember, sorry if that's the case).

Now, first off, Aereas misspoke. Not once did I dispute that the spell prepared and cast after casting Anyspell is arcane, it is, but it is powered by Divine magic. It is very specific in the description that the spell being cast has its DC set by the Cleric's Wisdom modifier, not Intelligence and the Cleric must have a Wisdom (not Intelligence) score of 10 + the arcane spell's level to be able to cast it. And it requires a Divine Focus in place of whatever the non-valuable material components of the arcane spell. Yes, the spell works just as though cast by a wizard of the cleric's level, but the spell is powered by Divine magic. If it wasn't, its DC would be determined by Intelligence and would have actual material components not a Divine Focus as a requirement. Arcane spells do not have or require Divine Focuses.

That's my take on it. I'm not going to defend myself against anyone that happens to disagree. I don't need to. I'm the DM of the game in question and I made my judgement regarding that prestige class and I stand by it. I knew Aereas was using that spell to bypass a legitimate requirement and in the post preceeding this, he admits it. I don't mind if players get creative trying to meet or exceed requirements, but getting around them, bypassing them or whatever else is just plain lazy, is practically cheating and something I have no patience for. When considering the PrC, I looked not only at the requirements, but also considered the intent and purpose of the PrC and do not feel I was off base by changing the requirement from "Ability to cast arcane and divine spells" to "having 3 levels of arcane and divine spellcasting classes".

Lastly, this just came to mind, another reason why I won't let Anyspell suffice and that is because I will not allow casting a spell to meet a requirement for a prestige class--unless it is something specific like being able to cast Animate Dead for the True Necromancer. In this case, that is only a conditional solution to a nonconditional situation. If that were allowed or encouraged, any Wizard that cared to do so, for example, could meet the BAB requirements for most fighter-type prestige classes just by casting Tenser's Transformation which sets the Wizards BAB as equal to his character level or anyone could beat any requirement with the right spell cast or magic item used.

 

[Thanee]

Your decision is absolutely fair.

Allowing Anyspell for PrC requirements is not a good idea, from a balance point of view, as the classes are balanced without such loopholes in mind.

Dweomerkeeper is a ultra-powerful PrC, so the requirements should stay as they are and not be lowered.

Besides, when turning spells into supernatural abilities, you two should consider to retain the XP component and only ditch the other ones. It's otherwise highly unbalancing (and the class is still more than powerful even without this little bit).

Bye
Thanee

 

[Hawken]

Thanks for the support, Thanee.

I have no intention of turning spells into supernatural abilities. The Anyspell thing was just Aereas' way of trying to bypass the requirement and he has since indicated that he is looking into other classes since he feels DK is not worth pursuing if he cannot bypass the requirements and take it as a single class cleric.

I do keep XP components in spells in my campaign. I was nice enough to allow them to make magic items without XP loss and thought that was being very generous, but that's going off on another tangent.

 

[Thanee]

I have no intention of turning spells into supernatural abilities.

That might be, but the Dweomerkeeper PrC has a class ability, which *does* transform spells into supernatural abilities a few times per day.

And this removes the XP component, unless it is house ruled, which I would *highly* recommend.

Bye
Thanee