D&D 5E Does the new ammunition rule screw up dual hand crossbow?

[Jester David]

But, with a free hand, a high level fighter can do it nearly once per second? (Four attacks + bonus action with the feat.)

Multiple attacks always cause screwing with the shortness of time of a D&D round. That's something I would have liked to see changed: 6 seconds is just too short for all that is expected to happen in a round all at once. Even if each turn was 6 seconds things get tight.

That said, it's improbable but less implausible. And I'm willing to accept that small amount of implausibility as something a skilled crossbow wielder - one of the best in the world - can accomplish. Especially if they have a mechanical winch allowing them to speed cocking. It doesn't take me out of the game as much as someone grabbing a crossbow string with a couple fingers while holding onto another crossbow and cocking.
The double hand loading causes problems on multiple levels. First, you stop to think how it would even happen. And that's the problem. You have to stop and picture it in your head, which is time you're not immersed in the game and story. Then you actually think about how it would work and the requirements and it seems even less likely.
I've tried lifting my son with just two fingers (one of his hands on my index, and one on my middle) and it's less a question of muscle (and it does take a lot) and more a question of what the joints can handle. And that's taking less force than a crossbow drawstring would take and said force is spread out over my entire finger. A good comparison would be picking up a really heavy load of groceries with one hand (again, four bags of potatoes) and lifting. That freakin' hurts.


My issue with so much of the dual wielding crossbow fans is frankly the laziness. Most aren't coming up with good suggestions for how it works, neat descriptions for how to describe it in game. It's just "this is what the rules say" or "the game is about playing heroes who can do impossible things" or "this is about my fun and desire to play a gunslinger-type" or "it's just as unrealistic as X". None of those do anything to convince me.

Really, it doesn't take much to justify the situation. Cords attacking the bows to the wrists is fine. That's all it takes. It looks a little silly, but it solves the issue. But, most of the time, that minimal effort isn't taken.

Or how about hooks on the sides of the boots? The crossbow wielder spins the bows around and grabs them by the front, crouches down, and slides the strings into the hooks. They hold on and straighten, drawing the strings at the same time (while using the stronger leg muscles). Then grab the bows again and slide a bolt from holsters in the legs with a couple fingers and let it fall into place. That catches the imagination and *seems* reasonable, while also keeping people in the game. It's less distracting while also being badass.

But being creative is just harder than arguing or trying for a compromise...

 

[pemerton]

Multiple attacks always cause screwing with the shortness of time of a D&D round. That's something I would have liked to see changed: 6 seconds is just too short for all that is expected to happen in a round all at once. Even if each turn was 6 seconds things get tight.

That said, it's improbable but less implausible. And I'm willing to accept that small amount of implausibility as something a skilled crossbow wielder - one of the best in the world - can accomplish. Especially if they have a mechanical winch allowing them to speed cocking. It doesn't take me out of the game as much as someone grabbing a crossbow string with a couple fingers while holding onto another crossbow and cocking.

To me, this is very much a taste thing.

For instance, the winch that you describe - that allows a crossbow to be cocked in one second - strikes me as virtually magical in itself, and involving a degree of precision engineering (in respect of its bearings, its ratchets etc) that are out of place in a standard D&D universe. If you're going to posit such an high quality winch, why not just go all the way and posit a hand crossbow that is somehow self-cocking (eg via some sort of lever arrangement)?

The double hand loading causes problems on multiple levels. First, you stop to think how it would even happen. And that's the problem. You have to stop and picture it in your head, which is time you're not immersed in the game and story. Then you actually think about how it would work and the requirements and it seems even less likely.

I think this is very much optional also.

When a thief climbs a literally sheer wall, I don't really stop and picture it (is the thief like Spider Man? does s/he have anachronistic suction cups?). When a rogue lops of a giant's head with a shortsword, I don't really stop and picture it (how exactly does that work? isn't the rogue absolutely covered in blood and gore? etc).

When stop motion initiative plus freestyle movement allows an archer to duck out of cover, shoot, then duck back behind cover before an enemy can respond, although notionally in the fiction everything is happening simultaneously (it's all the same 6 seconds, after all, not a series of chess-clock turns), I don't really stop and picture that either. (To elaborate: the movement allowance for the archer is factored in terms of 6 seconds of movement, but the turn-by-turn initiative rules allow that movement allowance to be deployed in virtually an instant, before anyone else can take their turn. Taken to its limit it gives you the peasant rail gun, but even the sniper archer version is weird - move 15' out of cover, shoot, then move 15' behind cover before anyone else can respond.)

Often a general description of the action is all that I am working with, and picturing is a hindrance rather than a help!

My issue with so much of the dual wielding crossbow fans is frankly the laziness. Most aren't coming up with good suggestions for how it works

<snip>

being creative is just harder than arguing or trying for a compromise...

Well, as you know I invented wrist cords in my post upthread.

But I don't really think it's laziness. It's a willingness to tolerate slippage between mechanics and fiction in this case as in all the other cases, some of which I've mentioned above. (What is the explanation, in the fiction, for the trick the archer can pull?)

A good comparison would be picking up a really heavy load of groceries with one hand (again, four bags of potatoes) and lifting. That freakin' hurts.

Sure. But I can carry 10 kg of groceries in one hand without too much trouble. I mean, I wouldn't want to have to run a race carrying it or anything like that, but I can walk a few hundred metres. And I'm not Conan or Aragorn, I'm just a regular person with a white collar job.

Conan uses his mighty thews to strangle people, giant snakes and the like with a single hand. When he punches people in the head, skulls and necks fracture, and people die. I bet he's got pretty strong fingers!

 

[Jester David]

To me, this is very much a taste thing.

For instance, the winch that you describe - that allows a crossbow to be cocked in one second - strikes me as virtually magical in itself, and involving a degree of precision engineering (in respect of its bearings, its ratchets etc) that are out of place in a standard D&D universe. If you're going to posit such an high quality winch, why not just go all the way and posit a hand crossbow that is somehow self-cocking (eg via some sort of lever arrangement)?

A simple lever cocking device isn't magical. It's hundreds of years old actually. It's just hard on the strings and requires some Strength.

[/QUOTE]Well, as you know I invented wrist cords in my post upthread.[/QUOTE]
That's why I mentioned it. Credit where credit is due.

Sure. But I can carry 10 kg of groceries in one hand without too much trouble. I mean, I wouldn't want to have to run a race carrying it or anything like that, but I can walk a few hundred metres. And I'm not Conan or Aragorn, I'm just a regular person with a white collar job.

10kg is about 22 pounds. So a weak bow would be twice that. And a strong bow three or even four times as much.

Conan uses his mighty thews to strangle people, giant snakes and the like with a single hand. When he punches people in the head, skulls and necks fracture, and people die. I bet he's got pretty strong fingers!

But we're not talking about Conan but a crossbow archer, which likely has high Dex and only an average Strength. You might very well but as strong as the archer in question. Conan is unlikely to waste a feat on Crossbow Mastery...

 

[pemerton]

A simple lever cocking device isn't magical.

I was referring to a winch that permits the bow to be cocked in one second. Which is what is required to unleash 5 shots in 6 seconds. Which is what a high level fighter can do in 5e.

I don't know enough about winch design to know how feasible that is in the modern era (where eg a small electric motor might do the winding, manage the release of the ratchets, etc). But I think the quality of the bearings and other parts in that winch would be beyond the general engineering capabilities of the default D&D world.

As for the tool-assisted loading option in general - the rules say that loading a crossbow requires a free hand, but if a hand is holding a cocking lever then it's not free! Presumably, then, you have to drop your cocking lever. And then pick it up again next round? (You only get one free object interaction per turn.) So how are you meant to do multiple shots per round?

I think this whole rules area is something where pedantic rules text hinders rather than helps. I think it would be better to allow different tables to find their own equilibrium points. Especially when the errata doesn't actually change any substantive mechanical consequences for play - the character can still get just as many shots off per round single-wielding as dual-wielding.

10kg is about 22 pounds. So a weak bow would be twice that. And a strong bow three or even four times as much.

Sure. But presumably a high level fighter is a lot stronger than me!

But we're not talking about Conan but a crossbow archer, which likely has high Dex and only an average Strength. You might very well but as strong as the archer in question. Conan is unlikely to waste a feat on Crossbow Mastery...

This is another area where picturing the game only causes needless chaos.

You're asking me to imagine a character who can shoot a crossbow once per second. Who, if s/he puts his/her mind to it, can shoot 40 arrows per minute. Who has a good chance of facing down a lion in hand-to-hand combat. Who can fall 100 feet and survive to walk away. But who cannot carry a heavier load of groceries, or pull a heavier bowstring, than I can!

I'm prepared to allow that a 20th level DEX fighter has hands and wrists strong enough to cock a crossbow, even if the STR box on the sheet still only has a 10 written in it. Otherwise (when wielding a longbow) how does s/he draw that bowstring so quickly, and shoot with such accuracy, round after round after round?

 

[spinozajack]

To paraphrase pemerton (who adamantly refuses to abide by the ignore feature, so I give up) : "why not jump both feet into the patently absurd, while we're already one foot in towards the implausible".

In other words, let's just give up trying to have a set of game rules that make sense, and double down on the whackiest thing we can think of.

Let me say, I am relieved the designers agree with my point of view, that absurdities need curtailing and not inflating. But they wanted to make some money, and decided that logical, sensible rules were one way to achieve that goal. And their strategy seems to have paid off in spades. Aside from a few imbalances, 5th edition is versatile, flexible, and well constructed in game mechanics terms, but still capable of being understood in terms of how those mechanics play out in the story. A simple, common sense approach is a selling point of this game. Hence, its success.

Good night dual wielding crossbows, we hardly knew ye. The excesses of previous rulesets' irrationality have been laid to rest, and desire to cast "raise dead" on them overruled.

 

[Iosue]

But Pem, you're not exactly comparing like with like. I, too, can totally imagine a 20-level DEX fighter doing all sorts of dual-crossbow awesomeness similar to the 40 arrows per minute, fall 100 feet, and all that. But they need to get to 20th level to get all that. With dual-crossbows, we're talking 1st level.

Just for the record, my own personal ruling on this remains the same now as before the errata. If we're playing a loosey-goosey, cinematic-type campaign, give me a plausible (not necessarily feasible, not necessarily realistic -- plausible) method for reloading these dual-crossbows, and we're good to go. If we're playing a more down-to-earth campaign, dual-crossbows are not going to happen -- that's flavor that doesn't fit with the campaign flavor.

 

[aramis erak]

The errata for hand crossbows makes sense to me and it's how I would interpret it, but I also have no problem if someone wants to do it the other way because that's their character concept. As long as it's not broken, what do I care if they're doing it different than I'd do it? I am sure I am doing plenty of things with my character that others at the table would do differently if they were playing my character.

I also kinda dig the image of standing behind a table full of loaded hand crossbows, and continually picking one (or two) up and firing them each round, and not bothering to load them (or at least not bothering to load one of them).

Dinner following evening Court at Selviergard's Spring Offensive a few years ago... tho' those were pellet crossbows firing marsmallows, and their Majesties (Alden & Constantina) started it... and had several each in reach. And reloaded.

It's really more humorous that imposing.

 

[pemerton]

But Pem, you're not exactly comparing like with like. I, too, can totally imagine a 20-level DEX fighter doing all sorts of dual-crossbow awesomeness similar to the 40 arrows per minute, fall 100 feet, and all that. But they need to get to 20th level to get all that. With dual-crossbows, we're talking 1st level.

1st level only with human variant, I think. Otherwise 4th?

At 4th level, if a character shoots one hand crossbow then (via the feat) shoots another as a bonus action, we're talking two reloads in 6 seconds. Classically, a 4th level fighter was a Hero.

This is a character who probably has more hit points than a lion and who, if wearing armour, has a good chance of defeating a lion in hand-to-hand combat (say +6 to hit vs AC 12 for 4 damage on a hit, meaning 3 DPR, meaning 9 rounds to drop the lion, who in that time (assuming AC 18 for the PC) will hit 9*(9/20) = 4 times for a total of 28 damage, not quite making it through the PCs likely 30 to 32 hit points (assuming a CON of 12).

I can imagine that character loading each of his/her hand crossbows - either by using a hand holding a crossbow to also draw the bowstring and place the bolt (someone upthread mentioned that waiters can carry more than two classes at the same time - I'm applying the same principle), by drawing the string with a hook on his/her belt or scabbard or something similar, by dropping one of the crossbows then picking it up again without dislodging the bolt, etc.

 

[pemerton]

To paraphrase pemerton (who adamantly refuses to abide by the ignore feature, so I give up)

I don't think you get how ignore

works. You're meant to be ignoring me! I don't even know I'm on your ignore list except you keep telling me about it - ie you apparently don't want to ignore me.

 

[Bacon Bits]

My issue with so much of the dual wielding crossbow fans is frankly the laziness. Most aren't coming up with good suggestions for how it works, neat descriptions for how to describe it in game. It's just "this is what the rules say" or "the game is about playing heroes who can do impossible things" or "this is about my fun and desire to play a gunslinger-type" or "it's just as unrealistic as X". None of those do anything to convince me.

People don't bother explaining it because it doesn't matter how it works to them. There are too many things in the game which are difficult or impossible to describe the mechanics for, or which already do not mirror how actual historical devices worked. It's easy to poke holes in the realism of D&D, especially combat, regardless of whether or not you include magic. Furthermore, mechanical aptitude and engineering prowess should not be a prerequisite for playing a character in a game.

Historically, a Heavy Crossbow in D&D has been one that required a winch, windlass, lever, or other drawing mechanism. In every edition I've got that's bothered to describe them (2e and 3e) it has been so, while others merely intimate it (fires every other round in 1e, and once every three rounds in OD&D, Basic D&D allows faster firing, but carries other requirements like 18 Str to do so). 5e doesn't describe weapons, but I think we can assume that to still be the case. The game says that in 12 seconds a high level Fighter with Crossbow Expert can launch 16 bolts from a Heavy Crossbow, and each individual shot will be as accurate as if the same character had taken a minute to make one carefully aimed shot. Without any kind of magic. Clearly, realism is not the focus of D&D combat.

If there's any ridiculousness here, I'd put the lion's share of it with Crossbow Expert's circumvention of the Loading property and the Fighter's Action Surge, not the fact that it's difficult to draw a hand crossbow with something in your hand.

In the end, we allow it because it's not broken (being identical to using one hand crossbow with the feat), not outside the realm of how ridiculous combat is, and, most of all, because one of the players asked for it because he thought it was fun and cool.

Besides, it's not like repeating hand crossbows weren't a fixture of the game at one point....