Does your campaign have magic shops?

Does your campaign have magic shops?

  • Yes. Players subtract the gold from their sheet, and show me an item from the DMG, and they have it

    Votes: 27 7.5%
  • Yes. Magic item exchanges are roleplayed, but most items are available, and are generally available

    Votes: 13 3.6%
  • Yes. Magic item shops exist, though they do not necessarily have all the items in the DMG available

    Votes: 124 34.3%
  • Yes. Magic item shops are prevalent, although they might require a quest for powerful items, such a

    Votes: 59 16.3%
  • No. Magic items can be traded for only with powerful spellcasters, who are rare, and trading for go

    Votes: 45 12.4%
  • No. Magic items can occasionally be traded for, but are in large part looted or crafted.

    Votes: 78 21.5%
  • No. Magic items are so rare that they are only looted and/or crafted.

    Votes: 16 4.4%

I've always had dealers in magic items in my games. Usually traders in other rare goods --art, antiquities, etc.-- that also sold enchantments to those in the know... but then, I like games with immense fantasy metropoli and ancient, decadent civilizations. Urban and urbane is the way I like it... more Coward than Howard...

So long as I can come up with interesting and outrageous characters to run the magic shops, I'll have them in my games. Buying an item from a memorable character --who asks a memorable price-- can be just as exciting as taking one off some corpse in some ruins of an ancient, oddly grid-based culture...

I couldn't care less about extrapolating a coherent economic system vis a vis magic items from the back of the DMG... this just seems like a new kind of pleasure-free masturbation to me. The numbers in D&D just don't add up, unless you're talking about trying to hit a bulette with a mercurial greatsword while flanking...
 

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Storm Raven said:
Yes, in many cases, evil is easier than good. Which doesn't make it any less evil. And doesn't mean that your actions are any more commendable. Just because I can kill you and take your stuff doesn't mean I should, or even that most people would. Even wizards.

Its not about being evil, its about being powerful and the what must be done to gain that power. Even those with the best intentions often become strange of years of reading ancient texts and communing with daemons.

Maybe you can excuse the idea of wizards being near universally evil, and call it "realistic", but most can't.

Most arent "evil" most are moraly ambivelant. besides its to much trouble to keep track of mortal laws, they change every few centuries.

(Besides, I wouldn't usually call the ability to cast detect magic and summon monster I "bending the forces of the cosmos to your will", I'd call it party tricks. Low level casters can make items too, and they are unlikely to have the massive ego you ascribe to all wizards, and clerics, druids, sorcerers, and bards).

To John Q. Pesant who has never been 10 miles from where he is born the ability to conjure creature from thin air is terrifying.

And having the "stones" to use your will to bend exisntace neccesitates a certian amount of arrogance.

If your game includes PC spellcasters, then you don't have a strong Howard/Lovecraft feel. You have an arbitrary feel.

the last PC spell caster was a Priestess of Set. Once after defeating a group of dwarves she sacrificed them all to summon a powerful Daemon. Since then she's taken to sacrificing the occasional slave/villiager to her Dark Master.
 

Henry said:
Though I've allowed purchase and sale of many magic items in my games, I've NEVER allowed purchase and sale of major relics and artifacts. They've always been major portable plot hooks. I would object to someone selling these for mere gold. Does that make me value the "mystique" of magic... or does it just make me a hypocrite?
Well, I also would say the artifacts are NOT normal items. They often are intelligent, or sentient sometimes in ways ordinary people don't understand. The very nature of an artifact makes it difficult if not damn well impossible to sell. And naturally the artifacts that possess users aren't going to allow themselves to be sold either.
 

Again, please note: the poll is not designed to state whether or not magic item shops (or shoppes, chuckle) SHOULD exist, it's whether or not they DO exist in people's games.
The general consensus is that in one way or another, they do.
Some people simply set a cutoff of where an item starts being "special" -- some people want golf bags of +1 weapons with a holy avenger being something stories are written about, while others want +2 weapons to have names and histories and be treasured items.
A similar poll would be, "how important are your PC's items to your idea of your character," and another would be, "how important are the backstories of the magic items in your campaign," but this is not that poll. :)
Not that this discussion is bad, I'm simply saying, look at the poll more than what people are saying -- the majority of people use magic item shops in one way or another, while there is a very vocal minority against such use.
And, once again, I'd like to stress that I highly enjoy both ways of playing, and running the game.
<aside>On a completely unrelated note, I got a D&D poster of the dragons at walmart for 4 bucks. I didn't know walmart in the south sells that stuff. There's no gaming shops in sight, but there's a poster of the dragons (art from the mm's.) Ah well. </aside>
 

No magic shops.

There are alchemists who make alchemical items (notably potions), hedge-wizards and "witches" who trade in charms and potions of variable worth, (rare) wizards of some power who can be hired to craft items of almost any sort for individuals (in return for spell-scrolls, spellbooks, magic items, rare components, et cetera), churches which occasionally make potions or one-shot items available to the faithful for a suitable "donation", a network of merchant, wizard and rogue guilds who occasionally have items on-hand in guildhouses that dues-paying members have the opportunity to purchase and one traveling gunsmith/alchemist, but no bloody cash-and-carry shops, malls, factory outlets or Home Crystal Ball Shopping Networks, goddammit.
 

Jürgen Hubert said:
Humans had some sort of market economy for most of recorded history, however. I mean, that's why coins were minted, right? So it shouldn't be so surprising if someone tries to make a buck from magic items...
The poster made the term fantasy clear in his post. "Humans in recorded history" != a fantasy culture.

I think that the idea that a fantasy culture's mindset (D&D or otherwise) should mirror 21st century Earth (or even 13th century western Europe) to be somewhat silly. If we insist on looking at Earth culture, though, then look at 21st century Japanese culture, for example, and compare how different it is to other societies... The suggestion that one should "expect" something in a fantasy culture is dubious, at best. Rationality is not a prerequisite for a society.
 

Something else to consider is the individual personality of a mage - perhaps there is some guy obsessed with making the perfect magic sword. Or perhaps he just enjoys making swords. And though he likes to keep his "favorites" the excess, he sells to allow him to fund his magical sword-making. Insert your favorite magic item category for "magic sword" and you can see how this could affect the economics and possibilities for a magic shop.

Not every wizard will have the same personality. Heck, maybe they only have a few levels of wizard and they have levels in expert to be a blacksmith or something else.

Maybe someone only would become a wizard because he wants to make money, and he determined he had no other way to do it.

I also try and make my magical shop (or any shop) stewards have interesting personalities and a story behind every item (beyond potions and scrolls). Perhaps the story is only a few sentences, but it at least gives things a little flavor.
 

To John Q. Pesant who has never been 10 miles from where he is born the ability to conjure creature from thin air is terrifying.
Aye, perhaps true in Lovecraftian style of magic. But keep in mind that isn't normal by the book. John Q. Peasant, in a normal D&D world, has certainly seen creatures conjured from the air, melodies strummed from nowhere, seen wounds knit at the behest of the deities, and maybe had his daughter hit on by a bard using charm person. Magic isn't rare, in a default world, and I don't know that there's a problem with that, aside from personal preferences.

Humans had some sort of market economy for most of recorded history, however. I mean, that's why coins were minted, right? So it shouldn't be so surprising if someone tries to make a buck from magic items...
Before the gold standard there was the goat standard. ;)

I think that the idea that a fantasy culture's mindset (D&D or otherwise) should mirror 21st century Earth (or even 13th century western Europe) to be somewhat silly. If we insist on looking at Earth culture, though, then look at 21st century Japanese culture, for example, and compare how different it is to other societies... The suggestion that one should "expect" something in a fantasy culture is dubious, at best. Rationality is not a prerequisite for a society.
You'd be surprised, perhaps, at how many detailed and highly academic wars are faught over what constitutes a culture and how different it all really is.

But aside from the fact that no one can ever know any culture in a true sense, the fact that most of the players of D&D are from 21st century Earth pretty much mandates that a lot of the game's characters will share very similar aspects to that mindset, because as in-character as some players can get, they ain't professional actors, and it's impossible to use the method to convincingly play a fantasy creature. It is reasonable to expect something from a fantasy culture in the game as presented in the rules, and it should be reasonable to expect anything in any homebrew, too...that's kind of the essence of verisimilitude, the fact that even though there are dragons and fireballs, things work in a somewhat predictable fashion, even if it's not the same as they work here. Of course the fantasy culture's mindset is going to mirror a 21st century Western mindset for the most part -- the fantasy culture is being created by those with that mindset. And even when it tries for something else (like 13th Century Western Europe), it's not legitimate, it's not accurate, it's just a 21st century take on some other culture. Part of the strength of the new edition, I believe, is to embrace that rather than dismiss it. They make things work on their own terms rather than trying to interpret someone else's terms, and invariably get them wrong. Like a "translation" of the Qur'an, the moment you try to understand someone else's culture, you're missing an essential nature of that culture. So D&D just makes it's own, and makes no apologies for it, and says you can change it and tweak it all you like.

If your game includes PC spellcasters, then you don't have a strong Howard/Lovecraft feel. You have an arbitrary feel.
So, what, every time a CoC gamemaster allows a PC to learn from a tome of lore, their feel is all of a sudden arbitrary? And what's so bad about an arbitrary feel, as long as it's fun and there's enough verisimilitude not to ruin that fun?

the last PC spell caster was a Priestess of Set. Once after defeating a group of dwarves she sacrificed them all to summon a powerful Daemon. Since then she's taken to sacrificing the occasional slave/villiager to her Dark Master.
Sounds pretty typical Evil PC Spellcaster behavior, really. And a lot of fun to boot. :)

Well, I also would say the artifacts are NOT normal items. They often are intelligent, or sentient sometimes in ways ordinary people don't understand. The very nature of an artifact makes it difficult if not damn well impossible to sell. And naturally the artifacts that possess users aren't going to allow themselves to be sold either.
This, I think, is where the break occurs. Potions are like expensive neccessities. Magic weapons and armors are perhaps more like expensive appliances. When you get to the +5 level, you're talking jet planes and works of art. Artifacts are another beast entirely. To a certain extent, intelligent magic items are similarly that higher level of magic item. Artifacts don't even include a market price -- the message is that PC's shouldn't be the ones creating them. Unique convergences of deities and epic-level spellcasters do (which is why epic-level stuff includes such epic item creation). They're not "just another piece of magical equipment."

A magic sword, in default D&D, isn't some great and wonderous power from beyond mortal ken. The Book of Vile Darkness is some great and wonderous power from beyond mortal ken. A +2 sword is just a really nice blade. Still out of the realm of most peasants and commoners, but definately not out of the realm of, say, the captain of the city guard.
 

Kamikaze Midget said:
But aside from the fact that no one can ever know any culture in a true sense, the fact that most of the players of D&D are from 21st century Earth pretty much mandates that a lot of the game's characters will share very similar aspects to that mindset, because as in-character as some players can get, they ain't professional actors, and it's impossible to use the method to convincingly play a fantasy creature.
I couldn't quote anything from your (very good) post, so please bear with me.

I agree with you, certainly. We can interject 21st century Earth into the game (because, you're right - it's all we've got to go on, generally), but suggesting that magic shops must exist is flat-out wrong. They don't have to, and using basic cultural and psychological reasons (most often intertwined) is just fine. The first half of your first sentence tells it all.

Versimilitude only goes so far. After that, it becomes simply "jumping to conclusions". Where that line is, though, will be different for everyone... definitely a moment when the players and DM all have to be on board.
 

I agree with you, certainly. We can interject 21st century Earth into the game (because, you're right - it's all we've got to go on, generally), but suggesting that magic shops must exist is flat-out wrong. They don't have to, and using basic cultural and psychological reasons (most often intertwined) is just fine. The first half of your first sentence tells it all.
Bingo, they don't have to. :) I'm just defending the position that they do, and that it's a really good thing in general that they do. As always, everyone has their own spin. Certainly having magic shops in a Lovecraftian magic world would be in the best case a horrifying proposition ("You mean there's a guy out there who COLLECTS this stuff?! AAAAHG!"). And if magic is exotic and dangerous in your world in even its most minor forms, certainly having magic even as common as the DMG suggests (which is common enough to be known by most levels of society) risks weakening that. But if you're going for a different flavor of magic, I'd definately encourage you to reflect it in more than just magic item shops....the spellcasting classes, magic item creation, everything should at least be deeply affected in flavor, if not in mechanics. Things like Sanity and the use of ability scores to power magic are things that CoC uses to drive home it's world's definition of spellcasting
 

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