Does your campaign have magic shops?

[Rel]

Whilst I can empathise with your premise, it's unfortunately this sort of non sequitur which led me to my notion of using logic to determine magical item availability in the first place. If a 3rd level character has to spend weeks going on quests, finding raw materials and venturing from place to place to find components, then finally seeking out a smith capable of crafting such a device and an iconoclastic wizard capable of imbuing - his +1 sword, it makes no sense that a dozen levels later he can just buy half a dozen off the racks for his henchmen. The inevitable question as to "Why couldn't I do that at level 3?" springs to mind. Magic shops don't have scanners to only let people of certain level buy certain items. If a +1 sword is available, it's available. Current PC level is irrelevant.

I generally agree with this sentiment, Al (along with pretty much all the other points you've brought up in this thread). But I think there is a way to achieve this goal AND have some consistency in your game if you structure the campaign right.

What I did in my last campaign was to start the PC's off in a small, frontier town. There was a local wizard and he could craft some items for them if they wanted. But he was fairly lowly as wizards go and it was a "Big Deal" for him to make even minor items.

As the campaign progressed, they moved into other, more populated areas, where availability of magic items was better and the minor stuff could be had without much hassle. But the mid-range items were still more difficult to come by and may have required a bit of question or calling in of favors to get crafted.

Late in the campaign, as the PC's were reaching higher levels, they got access to Teleport and similar magics that allowed them to travel to the biggest city in the world. There they could obtain even the mid-range magic items with relative ease and it was only the big ticket items that would require great effort on their part. This was never really an issue because they didn't buy anything "big", instead getting the more powerful items from fallen foes and, notably, a sizable dragon hoard.

I'll point out that this was all largely accidental on my part. I wanted to start them in a rustic environment simply based on the story I had in mind and the possibilities for adventure that I planned to dangle down the road. The ability to keep magic item creation as somewhat of a "carrot on a stick" was a happy side effect. But it is something that I plan to keep in mind when designing future campaigns.

 

[Arnwyn]

Sure, you can create a fantasy culture and simply say: "There is no magic item trade in this culture." But to come up with a believeable fantasy culture, you have to figure out why not.

Exactly. I was just pointing out that using 21st century Earth reasoning as to "why" may not necessarily be the last word on the matter. (I agree it would be among the easier ways for some players to understand, but it certainly doesn't have to be the whole story.)

Japan still had a merchant class, though - as has pretty much every human culture with permanent settlements.

Wasn't talking about Japan in terms of merchants. Just used it as an example of a very different culture where the norms are quite different than what a North American might be used to - and that "expectations" and "making sense" are far from being prerequisites. Just a roundabout way (combined with the other points over multiple posts) of making the point that the selling of magic items in shops is not to be "expected" in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Mallus]

If a 3rd level character has to spend weeks going on quests, finding raw materials and venturing from place to place to find components, then finally seeking out a smith capable of crafting such a device and an iconoclastic wizard capable of imbuing - his +1 sword, it makes no sense that a dozen levels later he can just buy half a dozen off the racks for his henchmen. The inevitable question as to "Why couldn't I do that at level 3?" springs to mind.

Here's one answer:

The 3rd level character and the the 15th level character don't shop at the same establishments. The 3rd level character is relatively ignorant of where to shop, whilst the seasoned 15th level character is either 1) completely familiar with the given locale, or 2) so experienced in the "sparkly trade" they can sniff out a well-supplied item shop in no time flat, or 3) both.

Try this: replace the words 'magic item' with 'illegal drug', and then ask why an experienced buyer has any easier time scoring than an a newbie

 

[The_Gneech]

I generally agree with this sentiment, Al (along with pretty much all the other points you've brought up in this thread). But I think there is a way to achieve this goal AND have some consistency in your game if you structure the campaign right.

What I did in my last campaign was to start the PC's off in a small, frontier town. There was a local wizard and he could craft some items for them if they wanted. But he was fairly lowly as wizards go and it was a "Big Deal" for him to make even minor items.

*snip*

Late in the campaign, as the PC's were reaching higher levels, they got access to Teleport and similar magics that allowed them to travel to the biggest city in the world. There they could obtain even the mid-range magic items with relative ease and it was only the big ticket items that would require great effort on their part.

This is a very good way of handling it, IMO; the only problem is players getting tired of starting way out in the sticks every time.

-The Gneech

 

[WayneLigon]

I voted 'Yes #4' but it's a bit more complex than that. I don't have shops in the sense that you have someone selling something made by another person (though that's pretty rare in the quasi-middle-ages setting I use anyway).

A mage that knows the various Craft X feats will perhaps advertise himself as an Artificer. He'll make certain items for either cash or trade, depending on what's offered and what he needs. There will certainly be a wait since he'll usually be (whatever number sounds reasonable, taking into account plot stuff) items behind at some point. He may need components, depending on the spell needed for the item. Some artificers will specialize, or will refuse to make certain items (Mirarees Willowwhisp will certainly not be making Arrows of Elf Slaying anytime soon). Some will not have the spell needed, and may require it to be found or donated.

Some will have certain 'common' items for immediate purchase, like 1d8+2 potions of healing, everburning flame items, stuff like that.

 

[Rel]

This is a very good way of handling it, IMO; the only problem is players getting tired of starting way out in the sticks every time.

-The Gneech

Quite true. But there are other ways of getting this structure.

For example, the campaign could start in a big city, but one where magic is tightly restricted by the government. There might be some access to magic items through the Black Market, but the big ticket stuff draws too much attention and is unavailable.

And I'm not saying that there is anything wrong or bad about starting in a place where magic can be freely bought. Cost is also a barrier to entry for these sorts of things and low level PC's are notoriously low on cash.

 

[Al]

Try this: replace the words 'magic item' with 'illegal drug', and then ask why an experienced buyer has any easier time scoring than an a newbie

I don't buy this argument. Magic items aren't illegal (well, they could be, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish), are likely to be located in very obvious very upmarket parts of town (and even 3rd level PCs are going to be sufficiently wealthy to enter), and will "advertise" heavily. Anyone with any knowledge of the city *at all* should be able to find a magic shop. Moreover, if some objective test is needed, Knowledge (local) is a better approximation than a crude level-scaling system. Given how many PCs take Knowledge (local), I'd argue that a 3rd level rogue with such a skill might be *better* equipped to find magic shops than his higher level compatriots.

 

[Mallus]

I don't buy this argument. Magic items aren't illegal (well, they could be, but that's an entirely different kettle of fish), are likely to be located in very obvious very upmarket parts of town (and even 3rd level PCs are going to be sufficiently wealthy to enter), and will "advertise" heavily. Anyone with any knowledge of the city *at all* should be able to find a magic shop. Moreover, if some objective test is needed, Knowledge (local) is a better approximation than a crude level-scaling system. Given how many PCs take Knowledge (local), I'd argue that a 3rd level rogue with such a skill might be *better* equipped to find magic shops than his higher level compatriots.

All your points are good, but they all work off of a set of viable assumptions. My point was that they're plenty of other viable assumptions, and invoking 'logic' when talking about this stuff is liable to bite you in the arse.. Consider:

1) Magic items might be illegal. Or controlled. Or at least their sale might be self-policed by their industry. One bad apple in the grenade seller's asociation could spoil it for the lot of honest grenade merchants...

2) It reasonable to assume that magic item boutiques would be found in the most afflluent sections of a large city. But what mechandise would they carry? The toys that dungeons delvers love so much, or magics that make one thinner, prettier, and younger? At best I could see such shops selling defensive enchantments in the form of jewelry. But why would you find arms merchants setting up shop next to Prada and the Jaguar dealership?

3) Advetising? Does that even exist in the campaign, at least in the modern sense? And why would a dealer in enormously costly niche items advertise to the general public? Word of mouth among the rich and powerful would offer the real benefit, plus, its a lot safer. We're talking about goods few can actually buy, and plenty would be tempted to steal...

4) A 'crude level-based system' is a bit of handwaving... but hey, levels are gained by 'experience points', so sue me if I think that translates into some loosely-defined, widely applicable, practical experience... Generally speaking, a bush-league rogue has had less wordly dealings than a veteran fighter, so it deosn't strain credulity --for me-- that the fighter is better at shopping.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Just a roundabout way (combined with the other points over multiple posts) of making the point that the selling of magic items in shops is not to be "expected" in any way, shape, or form.

Well, they're kind of expected in the same way that elves and halflings are expected -- they're part of the rules as written. Of course, DM's have been changing the rules for years, and doing away with magic shops is no greater an offense than doing away with gnomes, so there ya go.

Anyone with any knowledge of the city *at all* should be able to find a magic shop.

I dunno, man....I wouldn't know where to begin to look if I wanted to go about purchasing a LEAR Jet. They don't exactly advertise...though they may contact buyers they're interested in having. I can maybe imagine low-level potion brewers and scroll scribers working hard to flood the market, but 1,000 gp is already more money than most settlements in D&D have on hand. Heck, it's not unreasonable to expect that these shops are so rare as to not even largely exist in a city, but perhaps instead set up shop in the ruins or caves themselves -- run for adventurers, by adventurers, and if you want to find it, you can be an adventurer (or pay one). I could imagine a creature who basically sets up shop in the dangerous regions to sell things to those who come in...in fact, I did! They're the cave hermits!

I guess I don't see why a magic shop has to operate like a traditional mall or something...maybe more like high-end fashion with specific designers, maybe one store on a continent, and no real need to advertise, because it spreads by word of mouth in the areas they're interested in selling to.

 

[Mallus]

Since I'm apparently still interested in this topic... here are three places you can shop for magic items in my current campign...

The Kingdom of Peaceable Teas 317 Opium Way, Little Ajakhan District, port of Narayan, prop: Mop Mop Bow, an elderly wu jen/alchemist/tea afficianado from Imperial Ajakhan.

All manner of potions and powders are available here; all in the form of tea. To most passersby, its a ramshackle tea and spice shop. To gourmets, its the place to go for best Ajakhani tea in all of the city of Narayan. To even fewer people, its the place for affordable and potent herbal magics...

Urbane Outfitters quayside, Quai Central, port of Narayan, prop: Richard-Ravi Hainous, a former adventurer and social activist turned greedy merchant prince. Notable for his longing running, sometime magical feud with his ex-wife and ex-business partner, Dame Judith of Wyk.

UO sells a variety of goods to wealthy travellers and the idle rich. This includes many sought-after adventurer items; weapons, armors, protective charms, etc. Anything that might interest a noble going on dangerous safari. While much of the magical stock is useful, it is heavily skewed towards young, wealhty, dillitante adventures... you're more likely to find a bejeweled magic rapier than an anxiomatic greatsword...

UO also sells trendy, youth-skewed fashions, knicknacks, and a wide array of home decorations...

Riven's next to Cafe Limbo, Saltbend Plaza, Saltbend District, city of Eris, prop: Riven Sugarglass, a half-mad, hideouly scarred alchemist/former adventurer.

Just about anything might be available here, given time, and Riven's mood. He specializes in easy-to-manufacture temporary charms that duplicate spell effects, but he is highly skilled, and better, well connected with other magicians. Riven's creations have around a %10 failure rate... and he won't deal in anything he doesn't 'approve of', which includes any kind of life-extending magics.

Also, included with any purchase is a sample of his namesake creation: sugarglass, which is an order of magnitude more durable than regular glass, delicicious to the taste, and has the unfortunate habit of dissolving utterly when exposed to water...