Double Empower?!?!?

[Endur]

I have heard about people using the empower feat to "Double Empower" spells. Particularly spells like Bulls Strength, allowing 2-5 to be multiplied by 1.5 and then by 1.5 again.

Is this really allowed in the rules? Can anybody show a reference in the WOTC rules that permit this?

Endur

 

[IceBear]

It is allowed because you are allowed to add multiple metamagic feats to a spell, and it never, ever, says that they must be different metamagic feats. Where does it say you can't?

Also, the Sage has answered several question on how to calculate the final value of a double empowered ray of enfeeblement, magic missle, etc, and thus, by implication, it is offically ok with WotC

IceBear

 

[Dr_Rictus]

Particularly spells like Bulls Strength, allowing 2-5 to be multiplied by 1.5 and then by 1.5 again.

Not quite. Under the general rule for multipliers in D&D, applying two multipliers of x1.5 results in a single multiplier of x2. Not multiplying by 1.5 and then by 1.5 again, which would be x2.25.

 

[CRGreathouse]

It's not 1.5 * 1.5 =2.25 the final value though, it's 1.5 + (1.5-1) = 2, or double. D&D has strange multiplication rules.

 

[Artoomis]

Actually, the D&D mutiplier rule doesn't come into effect in this case (though the result is the same) That's because Metamagic is applied to the base spell only, so that the result is double the original effects.

To review:

Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by one-half. An empowered spell deals half again as much damage as normal, cures half again as many hit points, affects half again as many targets, etc., as appropriate. Saving throws and opposed rolls (such as the one the character makes when the character casts dispel magic) are not affected. Spells without random variables are not affected. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

So you get to increase effects by 1/2, and then you get to increase the original effects by 1/2 again, or an increase of 1, which is double.

 

[Petrosian]

Since you asked for rules reference, and since some people balk at the multiple reference from the PHB...

try the OFFICIAL DND FAQ online at WOTC where you will find...

"Can you add a metamagic feat more than once to any
particular spell? For example, double Maximize Spell, or
double Extend Spell?

You can apply most metamagic feats more than once. Just
stack up the costs, and remember to apply the additional effects
to the basic spell. For example, if you extend a spell twice, you
get 3 times the duration, not 4 times the duration (each extension
add 100% of the spell’s base duration).
There are a few metamagic feats that are constructed so as to
make stacking worthless or pointless. You cannot, for example,
get more than maximum damage out of a spell by maximizing the
spell more than once (if you want to send the spell’s damage
through the roof, use Empower Spell multiple times). Heighten
Spell already allows you set the spell’s effective level anywhere
you want (and can manage), so there’s no point in applying the
feat more than once."

 

[Numion]

And why yes. it does make Bulls Strength and endurance quite useful in higher levels. Cleric in my games uses double-empowered boosters all the time.

 

[-Eä-]

Especially if you are an Incantatrix

 

[Alphar]

So...as an Incantatrix you could have a quadruple-empowered, energy substituted (sonic) cone of cold that does 15d6 x 3 (e.g. 1+.5+.5+.5+.5 = 3) as a 9th level spell. 157.5 points of damage (average), save for half, for everyone in the area. Who needs Power Word, Kill?

 

[-Eä-]

Well, if you want to be nasty, you can empower Fox's Cunning 7 times, adding (1d4+1)*4,5 intelligence points, on average adding 15 points of intelligence, in effect +7 to DCs, maximum 22 points, increasing DCs by 11. A lot better than those Headbands of Intellect, yes?
Even better to use for Monks when they use their stunning attack, perhaps? Or for fighters and their strength...