Double sword, not as good as everyone thinks

There is no need for an update beyond the FAQ answer quoted later in this thread. How it works with the rules and FAQ as it stands is clear and reasonable. This is just some people not liking how it works and creating churn by trying to make the rules say something other than what they do.

I would say that there is a problem if a Tempest player has no incentive to use any other weapon. If the double sword makes a lot of other weapon choices straight up obsolete, then I'd say there is a problem. Weapon choice should be a compromise between damage, reach, proficiency bonus and feat-use. If the double sword renders most weapons nonviable in this regard, it's problematic.

And I can't begrudge DMs who want to "fix" that situation. They do don't like how it works now, yeah, but how do they "create churn"? You don't have to play with them.
 

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I would say that there is a problem if a Tempest player has no incentive to use any other weapon. If the double sword makes a lot of other weapon choices straight up obsolete, then I'd say there is a problem.

I have to point out that the double sword is harmless compared to the urgosh.

If you let both ends count as as offhand weapon, the primary end would become a d12+2 Axe in the hands of a tempest, meaning it would become by far the most damaging weapon of the game (plus it would qualify for two weapon fighting, meaning one more point of possible damage). Oh yeah, and it also gives +1 AC (plus another one possible via two weapon defense).

How can anybody seriously call this balanced?
 

I have to point out that the double sword is harmless compared to the urgosh.

If you let both ends count as as offhand weapon, the primary end would become a d12+2 Axe in the hands of a tempest, meaning it would become by far the most damaging weapon of the game (plus it would qualify for two weapon fighting, meaning one more point of possible damage). Oh yeah, and it also gives +1 AC (plus another one possible via two weapon defense).

How can anybody seriously call this balanced?

Also, in the hands of a Tempest Shock Trooper that d12+2 becomes 2d6+2.
 

There is no need for an update beyond the FAQ answer quoted later in this thread. How it works with the rules and FAQ as it stands is clear and reasonable. This is just some people not liking how it works and creating churn by trying to make the rules say something other than what they do.

This is some people looking over difficult to read/unclear rules and making the best ruling possible to keep weapon options other than double weapons open to the tempest fighter.

The FAQ answer does put additional evidence against the first rules interpretation I posted (which I've already discovered makes no sense because of the defensive keyword), but does nothing to discredit my second interpretation.

It's not a huge deal one way or the other, I simply have more fun playing games balanced with lots of options.
Some people prefer clear cut option one is better than option two game mechanics. That's fine too, but it's not my cup of tea.
 

Incidentally: if we say that wielding a double weapon does not follow the rules for wielding two weapons, then don't they all of a sudden only take up one hand?
 

Seeing that double weapons deal more damage already than "normal" off-hand wepons, I really have problems with giving a double weapon wielding Tempest his full bonus with both ends.
Agreed.

This is what I believe the RAW states you get with the double sword as a Tempest.

+3 to hit main hand
+1 damage main hand
+4 to hit off hand
+2 damage off hand
d8
+1 to AC
The wording also suggests, that just the off-hand part does count as "off-hand", which would mean that a tempest would be better off attacking with the "off-hand" part rather thean with the "primary" as FrozenChrono pointed out. Bizarre.
I agree it's a bit bizarre.

I think my preferred way of handling this is a house rule: Tempests only get +1 to damage with double weapons (but still get the +1 to hit). So a double sword is +4 to hit, d8+1 damage with both ends, +1 AC. I'd also treat both ends as heavy blades (just dropping the light blade thing altogether, which makes no sense at the moment when you compare a double sword to a short sword or rapier).

This house rule means that the only benefits a Tempest gets from going to double sword (compared to two shorts swords) is better crit damage (average non-crit damage stays the same), +1 AC, and the ability to have the enhancement bonus apply to both weapons (but the inability to have other effects on the second weapon). This looks more balanced to me.

When using both ends, the Urgrosh is (on average) no different from the double flail or double axe. It is +1 better to damage on basic attacks, but I think the trade-off here is that you have two weapon types, so can't enhance both attacks with the same suite of feats and powers.
 

This house rule means that the only benefits a Tempest gets from going to double sword (compared to two shorts swords) is better crit damage (average non-crit damage stays the same), +1 AC, and the ability to have the enhancement bonus apply to both weapons (but the inability to have other effects on the second weapon). This looks more balanced to me.

Yes, this is one way of balancing it.

Anyway, I think the Tempest just showed that double wepons where poorly designed. I think the damage dice of all double weapons should have been lowered by one from the beginning.

A +3 d6/d6 double sword for example would be perfectly fine. Compared to short swords you would have to use on feat, but get +1AC, heavy and light blade type, and the benefit of having the enhancement bonus count on both ends (but just on "slot" or special weapon abilties).

This seems pretty balanced to me. It would make the double sword a viable choice for any dual wielder but not THE Rogue or Tempest weapon it is now.
 

The "benefit" of having the enhancement work on both ends is pretty slim. That's a patched-up disadvantage at best. I'm not convinced it's broken, rather that it's just a bit poorly designed.

Since a weapon with a lower level is so much cheaper it's often still beneficial to wield to separate weapons. This costs hardly much more, (and you can just recycle your previous best weapon anyhow), and you'll mostly attack with the "better" weapon anyhow, so a potential enhancement bonus difference isn't that big of an issue (and remember, an enhancement bonus difference is a full five levels worth of cost, so if you drop down one enhancement bonus, cost becomes almost negligible). The ability to have that extra weapon power just when you need it can be pretty damn cool.

Making it a light blade would cripple non-dex based characters, so if you want to strip one weapon type, keep the heavy blade. If you make only one end off-hand, and not the primary end, that makes it pretty crappy for a tempest, since that means he can't use his magical weapon properties on the most powerful attack (the one with the +2 damage and +1 to hit from his class ability). So, if you make the blade light, change it to d6, and make only the "off" end have the offhand property, it's a trap - it'll be absolutely terrible.

I think double weapons look better on paper than in practice. If there's something dubious, it's that it's both a heavy and a light blade - and that's not an issue for tempests but for rogues. As is a double-blade wielder gives up part of the flexibility of being a dual wielder (having two weapon properties), while not getting to use his weapon properties on off-hand attacks. He deals less damage and fewer status effects than a ranger, but is stickier: he's a defender/striker.

If a fix is necessary, I'm not sure exactly what it is. The argument that other tempest builds are (even) weaker doesn't particularly convince me; I think tempests aren't that great anyhow and perhaps a double blade is "too" good for them, but a battle-rager or a shield fighter will often be more attractive as defender, and a ranger remains better as a striker...

The easiest fix is just removing the light-blade-ness, but that'll make some currently existing rogues very unhappy. The urgrosh is already potentially more attractive, and if the light-blade aspect is removed, it's certainly balanced with a double axe or a double flail.

Edit: just to be clear, it's definitely not broken, and I'm not convinced it's even unbalanced as-is for tempests, though there is certainly an argument for rogues.
 
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This is some people looking over difficult to read/unclear rules and making the best ruling possible to keep weapon options other than double weapons open to the tempest fighter.

No, the rules are clear. They just don't say what some people want them to. A ruling is based on what the rules say, not what you want them to say. You're twisting bits and pieces of the rules into a different rule that gives you the answer you want. That isn't a ruling, it is a house rule.

The FAQ answer does put additional evidence against the first rules interpretation I posted (which I've already discovered makes no sense because of the defensive keyword), but does nothing to discredit my second interpretation.

Your second interpretation isn't an interpretation. it is something you fabricated. You created a split where none exists, in either the description of the double sword in the text or in the table. WOTC_Logan has already made two posts, one in which he explained that the orginal writeup had two seperate lines and one in which he said he couldn't speak to the reasonthat it was changed, but that it was a moot point with regard to the "final double sword" which he only used as an example. It changed, and the description clearly describes it as two identical longsword blades, not a longsword blade an a rapier blade. However you dress it up, your "interpretation" isn't a ruling or interpretation, it is a house rule.


It's not a huge deal one way or the other, I simply have more fun playing games balanced with lots of options.
Some people prefer clear cut option one is better than option two game mechanics. That's fine too, but it's not my cup of tea.

This is wholly irrelevant when posting about what a rule is. A rule says what it says, regardless of whether you like it. Again, if you're twisting a rule to make it say something other than what it actually says, you've moved past making a ruling and into making a house rule.

As an aside, I don't like double weapons at all, any of them, period. I do like options though, I just like them to be meaningful and different. Which means that some options will be better in some combinations than others. A bastard sword isn't as good for a tempest fighter as a double sword. That doesn't mean the double sword (or double weapon property) is overpowered. Just like it didn't mean that the bastard sword (or the versatile property) was overpowered because it is a better choice for most swordmages than a double sword. There are options which make the double sword nice for the swordmage and options where weapons other than the double sword or whatever are nice for the tempest. Those options aren't always as simplistic as using a different weapon and getting the same level of results. Sometimes you need to mix feats, races, magic items, paragon paths and/or multiclassing to get the benefit of a switch. I prefer complex options to simple options. And, if you have good and viable combinations, and make the good combinations only viable by making a component worse, combinations using that component that were previously viable become non-viable. You reduce the number of viable options, and the number of options overall. So trying to give yourself some false moral high ground by implying that you have desire for a superior game with more options is disingenuous at best.

On churn: Posting "I don't like this rule and I think it should be like this." is one thing. It is honest, and generates debate. Posting "This rule I don't like actually says this." when it clearly doesn't, and twisting bits of text selectively to make a point generates confusion and churn. Most particularly, the irrational calls for aditional clarification when none is needed. There are things that need attention more than multiple FAQ entries and rules updates to confirm that they mean what they say. What's the update for Double Weapons going to say? "Wielding a double weapon is like wielding a weapon in each hand, really, we mean it, for sure."

On the FAQ: Does someone have some "official" statement making the FAQ unofficial or that it is just a customer service answer. The only WotC information I've seen on the process is a customer service response to a question which said there wasn't an official answer, and the CS rep said he would send the question back to the developers of the game and that "hopefully" an FAQ or update would be forthcoming. I've never seen anything that said FAQ updates were made without the input of the developers,

But, really the 'FAQ isn't official' line is no different than what will happen if an update is released. The same people complaining that the existing rules are unclear because they clearly state something other than what they want them to will continue to claim that the updated rules are unclear if they don't like the updated rules.
 

Even if, all answers from wizards CustServ are not "official" rulings anyway.

Who says? Not them.

SubjectHow "Official" are Customer Service answers to 4e rules questions? Discussion Thread Response (Support Agent)11/13/2008 11:42 AMCaliban,

The Customer Service answers to 4th Edition Rules questions are official. Everything found in our knowledge base is an official rule. We receive training on all supported products.

As to why the FAQ on the official page is not linked to the one in the knowledge base, that's an excellent question. That will be changed.

Please let me know if you have any more questions!

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Charles
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Customer (Caliban)11/13/2008 11:20 AM
A debate has come up on one of the forums I frequent, and in the hopes of shedding some light on it, could you answer these questions?

Are the answers in the FAQ "http://wizards.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/wizards.cfg/php/enduser/std_adp.php?p_faqid=1396" vetted by the 4e designers?

Why isn't that FAQ linked on the "Official D&D FAQ" page? (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/faq)

How "Official" should the answers from Customer Service be considered when it comes to 4e rules questions?

Basically, are you simply a reasonably intelligent person sitting there with the rulebooks in your lap answering as best you can, or have you undergone a certain degree of training to ensure that you have above average rules knowledge and do you have access to the designers and/or up-to-date Knowledge Base to help make sure your answers are correct and consistent with each other?

Thank you,
 

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