Dr Strange 2: In the Multiverse of Madness (Spoilers)

Hussar

Legend
So what? Why should I give a crap about them? It's not like they're real. You're much too invested in these fictional people.

You asked for it.
Dude, I honestly have no idea where this hostility is coming from. It would be really, really appreciated if you'd dial it back a notch or just put me on ignore if what I'm saying is causing you so much angst.

Are you seriously, from an in universe perspective, claiming that the children that Wanda magically creates, then magically force ages, complete with personalities and memories 100% fabricated from her own imagination are real, but, the people of the town are just fictions? Sorry, but, the children are just delusions. The only reason they're not delusions, is because Wanda is this incredibly powerful godlike being who can reify her delusions. They are not her children. If they were her children, and not just echoes from other dimensions, she wouldn't have to murder an iteration of herself and replace herself as the mother of these children.
 

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Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever
In the comics, nobody ever kills the Joker - except in the Kingdom Come miniseries, where it was considered a big turning point that sets up later tragedy.
And The Dark Knight Returns miniseries, but that may not count as the Joker kills himself by moving his head around after Batman breaks the Joker's neck.
 

Davies

Legend
Are you seriously, from an in universe perspective,
You're the one who was complaining that people who defended Wanda were contemptible for being so invested in the defense of a fictional character. I return the favor.

And I'm always hostile to people who want to burn the witch, and cite the finale of the Dark Phoenix saga as a model for other stories rather than a disgusting narrative foisted on the writer by a pederast artist and a misogynist editor. Put me on ignore if you have a problem with that.
 

Eric V

Hero
You're the one who was complaining that people who defended Wanda were contemptible for being so invested in the defense of a fictional character. I return the favor.

And I'm always hostile to people who want to burn the witch, and cite the finale of the Dark Phoenix saga as a model for other stories rather than a disgusting narrative foisted on the writer by a pederast artist and a misogynist editor. Put me on ignore if you have a problem with that.
I don't think anyone has used the word 'contemptible'...or insinuated anything close to it, really.

I also don't think anyone wants to 'burn the witch.' @Hussar can speak for himself, but I don't think anyone thinks this writing of Wanda in Wandavision (and certainly not MoM) is a good reflection of the character...they did her dirty.
 



Eric V

Hero
There's an argument to be made that the Joker is mentally impaired, and thus not fully responsible for what he does; but he clearly does at least understand on some level what he's doing--and likes it that way.. Its abundantly clear for the first half of Wandavision, that she doesn't. It'd be like calling a super a villain for killing someone in their sleep.
Yeah, we disagree about her level of understanding after she confronts SWORD midway through the season...I think she knows full well* nothing good is happening to the citizens in the town but she just doesn't care...not compared to her own issues.

*Even if she doesn't know, for sure, she's torturing them...she certainly takes no steps to find out if the bubble is affecting them in any negative way at all, and when wielding power of her level, there's a moral imperative to do so. But again, the writers decided to...do what they did.
 

Eric V

Hero
He said that he wanted her "in the ground". I'm sure that he enjoyed watching her get crushed by rocks, but would prefer a more European style execution.
I...did not see that at all. I mean, I may have just missed it; the closest I saw was when he was trying to explain SWORD's perspective as a law-enforcement agency.
 


Yeah, we disagree about her level of understanding after she confronts SWORD midway through the season...I think she knows full well* nothing good is happening to the citizens in the town but she just doesn't care...not compared to her own issues.

Yeah, that's not my reading at all.

*Even if she doesn't know, for sure, she's torturing them...she certainly takes no steps to find out if the bubble is affecting them in any negative way at all, and when wielding power of her level, there's a moral imperative to do so. But again, the writers decided to...do what they did.

While you can roll off anything with the blame-the-writers card on this sort of thing, I still think this assumes she's thinking straight in a way I don't believe she's depicted as until after the confrontation with Agatha.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Yeah, that's not my reading at all.

While you can roll off anything with the blame-the-writers card on this sort of thing, I still think this assumes she's thinking straight in a way I don't believe she's depicted as until after the confrontation with Agatha.
SWORD confronts her with guns and directly tell her she’s holding hostages. She is in complete control of that situation, knows that its an illusion (Vision is falling apart when he goes through) and if she wanted to she could have let the townsfolk go then - she didnt have to loose her family either as she could have reduce the Hex just just her house and kept her family inside. But she doesnt make the good choice instead she acts selfishly and doubles down on her Hex
 

SWORD confronts her with guns and directly tell her she’s holding hostages. She is in complete control of that situation, knows that its an illusion (Vision is falling apart when he goes through) and if she wanted to she could have let the townsfolk go then - she didnt have to loose her family either as she could have reduce the Hex just just her house and kept her family inside. But she doesnt make the good choice instead she acts selfishly and doubles down on her Hex

Sorry, I still don't read that scene as her knowing its an illusion; I read it as her thinking she has a protective barrier and is confused when Vision starts to have his problem walking through it. SWORD tells her she's holding hostages, but why in the world would she believe anything from them?

It sets her mind on the path that she later does realize what she's been doing, but at that point? Naw.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
SWORD confronts her with guns and directly tell her she’s holding hostages. She is in complete control of that situation, knows that its an illusion (Vision is falling apart when he goes through) and if she wanted to she could have let the townsfolk go then - she didnt have to loose her family either as she could have reduce the Hex just just her house and kept her family inside. But she doesnt make the good choice instead she acts selfishly and doubles down on her Hex
Tragic heroes sometimes do that - their tragedy is brought on by external forces but compounded by rash decisions.
 

billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Sorry, I still don't read that scene as her knowing its an illusion; I read it as her thinking she has a protective barrier and is confused when Vision starts to have his problem walking through it. SWORD tells her she's holding hostages, but why in the world would she believe anything from them?
Simple fact is - she wouldn’t. They had already poisoned any possible relationship they could have had with her.
 

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Tragic heroes sometimes do that - their tragedy is brought on by external forces but compounded by rash decisions.
Sure but denial of the facts doesnt actually make them wrong. When dictators invade other countries and oppress the citizens do they believe they are doing wrong?
Afterall Doctor Doom is the Hero of Latveria and believes what he does is good too (avoiding real world examples)
 
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billd91

Hobbit on Quest (he/him)
Sure but denial of the facts doesnt actually make them wrong. When dictators invade other countries and oppress the citizens do they believe they are doing wrong?
Afterall Doctor Doom is the Hero of Latveria and believes what he does is good too (avoiding real world examples)
Big Difference: Doom isn‘t driven by trauma and grief but by megalomania. Same with invading dictators. Was Hussein motivated by trauma when Iraq invaded Kuwait? When Hitler’s Germany invaded damn near everybody within reach? No. They weren’t. The comparisons aren’t close.
 

Hussar

Legend
Big Difference: Doom isn‘t driven by trauma and grief but by megalomania. Same with invading dictators. Was Hussein motivated by trauma when Iraq invaded Kuwait? When Hitler’s Germany invaded damn near everybody within reach? No. They weren’t. The comparisons aren’t close.
Ok.

What's the difference between Wanda and Thanos? Other than scale? If Wanda succeeds, doesn't she cause an incursion between two universes, meaning that even if she succeeds, she will murder trillions of beings? In WandaVision, she is motivated by trauma to torture thousands of people. Thanos is motivated by trauma to save the universe.

Is there a difference? Does being "motivated by trauma" excuse anything? It explains things, sure. And I'll totally agree that Wanda is a sympathetic character. Fair enough. But, at the end of the day, doesn't she have any responsibility for her actions? And, if she doesn't, why do we see Thanos as the villain?

Or, is it that the situation is a bit more nuanced that simply good guy/bad guy? Which, honestly, is how I see it. I can totally sympathise with Wanda while at the same time condemn her for her actions.
 

Hussar

Legend
Just to add a further thought that occurred to me as I walked to work. There's a common complaint that MCU villains aren't very interesting. I can buy that. But, something that the MCU does do well is make sympathetic villains. Whether it's someone like Killmonger from Black Panther, or Whiplash from Iron Man 2, or Tony Stark in Civil War (yeah, that's a very debatable point about whether or not he's a villain but, he's certainly sympathetic) or various other baddies over the years, heck, even Thanos himself, the MCU has been pretty good about getting us to care about the villain.

To me, Wanda is just another in that same vein. Someone who cannot move past their trauma and makes incredibly bad, self destructive decisions because of their pain. I do think it's something that the MCU does rather well actually.
 


""You Know What They Call A Hero Who Doesn't Listen To Anyone, Doctor Strange.""

Except a major factor of the movie is.... Dr Strange does start to listen, and to change. He relies on others instead of "always holding the scalpel"
Which is, in fact, nonsense. He is still holding the scalpel. America Chevez IS the scalpel. And he has been using other people as his scalpel for ages. His whole plan for defeating Thanos involved spending 5 years dusted whilst others did everything.
And of course....he doesn't kill scores of people to get what he personally wants.
No, he engineers the deaths of half the people in the universe.
 

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