Dragonlance Dragonlance Creators Reveal Why There Are No Orcs On Krynn

Talking to the Dragonlance Nexus, Dragonlance creators Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman revealed why the world of Krynn features no orcs -- in short, because they didn't want to copy Tolkien, and orcs were very much a 'Middle Earth' thing.

Weis told Trampas Whiteman that "Orcs were also viewed as very Middle Earth. We wanted something different." Hickman added that it was draconians which made Krynn stand out. Read more at the link below!

Why are there no Orcs in Krynn? Weis and Hickman give us the answer! - Dragonlance Nexus

Dragonhelm gets the scoop from Weis and Hickman on why there are no orcs in Krynn. Read More

dragonlancenexus.com

 

[Maxperson]

Yes, hobbits had those traits, because Tolkien assigned them that way. Are you seriously suggesting he could not have done it any different?

Nope. I'm saying that what he could have done isn't relevant, because he didn't do it. Had he done it, we would not have the LotR story that we have. We would have a different story.

 

[Xamnam]

And I can tell you this: if I had a sudden need to add a new sentient race to my world to accomodate a player... I would.

I can tell you this, if I had a sudden need to overhaul my character concept to accommodate a DM, I would.

I think we can all agree it's a good thing to be respectful of the desires of everyone else at the table. A player doing it, and a DM doing it are both kind.

You keep making this claim. Prove it.

They've made the point repeatedly they're talking about their personal feelings when it comes to this. How are they supposed to prove that to your satisfaction?

 

[Faolyn]

the towers are not color coded…

The buildings aren't, but the wizards who use them sure are.

 

[Maxperson]

1984. DLA1.

The modules aren't the Krynn setting, though. They're a linear adventure that you go through. They are a setting in the sense that you can't play D&D without it being set somewhere, but set in a module is not the same as a world setting like Dragonlance, Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. You aren't going to get as much detail, such as orcs not being present in the world at large in a small module like that.

 

[Faolyn]

I didn't bring up the price, the original poster did. If he didn't think it was a point of relevance why do you suspect he brought it up?

She, and there's no significant difference between $50 and $45 or even $10. If I have to pay for something, I want it to be worth the money.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

But there are reasons. Because you (general you) might not think they are as important doesn't make them "no reason"

You argued that you can replace without changing the story. Making that change would have a huge impact to the story, because how races work in LoTR is a huge part of the story.

look I asked umbra to drop it and I am now asking you. I don't see it but it's an extra side thing when the discussion of in the reimagining (wotc words) of DL if adding new phb races (or old ones for half orc) changes anything has nothing to do with this side argument about lord of the rings.

Hobbits most certainly aren't just like regular men but come from small towns. I'm not sure how you can argue that while claiming to know anything about the books because it ignores the entire point of the books.

look this is ridicules I literally did... you know what never mind, fine I don't get the books. Happy?

 

[AnotherGuy]

She, and there's no significant difference between $50 and $45 or even $10. If I have to pay for something, I want it to be worth the money.

Thanks. Although the conversation mostly seems to mainly consist about orcs - the setting if played strictly could remove up to 3 playable races (orc, tiefling and dragonborn).

But are you paying for playable race value or are you paying for the setting mechanics and the adventure?
Including or not including these races makes no difference to this product.

 

[Faolyn]

‘We did not want orcs’ never falls apart

But it doesn't give a good reason for players who want orcs to say "OK, that makes sense" and choose something else.

As it is, if somebody wants to play an orc in Dragonlance, the only reason they are given not to is that the original writers--with whom this person will not be playing--didn't want them there. And, as others have said, having draconians take their place doesn't make much sense for people who see orcs as people rather than as monsters to be killed.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

So we've found the issue. You don't understand what change is.

knock it off yes I do and the insults need to stop.
I understand english I know what words mean and so do you. so stop.

It's if you make any little thing different. That's change. If Tolkien had written everything exactly the same, but made the One Ring silver instead of gold, that would have been a different story.

now we are back to no it isn't if the ring glowed silver or white or gold does not effect the rest of the book... heck it could be pink with rainbows through it.

There has been no time during the history of the setting that no one knew orcs were not on Krynn.

the first 2 years the setting was the novels and the adventures... also the time the writer, line editor, story editor, and TSR themselves 'forgot'

From the first moment that the setting was first published in 1987, orcs were not present. Modules are not a setting.

the modules were set in the setting and you know it this is word games.

Then you need to prove it,.

I have no need to prove anything.

which you can't do since I will notice it and if even one person notices it, your argument fails.

my argument didn't fail you just don't like it... mostly do to word games

 

[GMforPowergamers]

that works both ways, not having orcs is not problematic either

so having or not having isn't a big deal and isn't problematic... but people will argue for 100s of pages when people say "I don't think it really matters" including throwing insults

 

[Azzy]

So then there's absolutely no problem if the 5e Dragonlance book doesn't say that orcs aren't native, thus allowing people to play a native orc character in a Dragonlance game, right?

Why? Why is this an issue even? Why is something along the lines of Theros' and Ravnica's suggested exclusion list (which looks to be what they're doing with DL) not enough? Why is this even an argument? It's silly. DL doesn't have orcs by default because that's the way it was created. If you want orcs in your DL campaign, go for it. But why is it necessary to not have the exclusion default when it's carrying on a conscious decision of of the setting when it was created?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

As it is, if somebody wants to play an orc in Dragonlance, the only reason they are given not to is that the original writers--with whom this person will not be playing--didn't want them there. And, as others have said, having draconians take their place doesn't make much sense for people who see orcs as people rather than as monsters to be killed.

not only will none of us be playing with the creators most likely less then a fraction of a % ever will

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Why is this even an argument?

becuse everything seems to be now... it seems every thread is either 2 pages of cool ideas and joke or 100 of arguments

 

[Maxperson]

I just asked you what made Dragonlance unique. You refused to answer, and instead just said "it lacks orcs."

There's not a whole lot. Magic coming from the moon gods. Magic being affected by the phases of the moons. No orcs. Irda. There's little to it that's unique.

Anyone can make a setting that lacks orcs. I have, multiple times. My current setting lacks any and all goblinoids--in fact, really the only sapient races it has are the PHB races, minus dragonborn and plus bullywugs and kobolds, and a small number of monster races like fey, undead, and dragons. Does that make my world more unique than Krynn?

Anyone can make a setting with moon phase magic, lances made to kill dragons and dragon wars, too. So if "Anyone can make it" is what it takes to remove uniqueness, nothing in D&D is unique and we should just not make any more settings.

And I can tell you this: if I had a sudden need to add a new sentient race to my world to accomodate a player... I would.

What could create such a need? A player wanting to play something doesn't create a need to add in a race to the world.

Not at all. It might even be easier, depending on the type of horror I want to go for, the type of players, and what sort of things they're OK with. Because (as an example) tempting them to resort to a more primal nature is prime horror material, especially when only one of those three races is a predator. And I don't even need to resort to that when all the standard horror plots are still available to me and would work whether or not the PCs have fur.

Funny how you're adamant you can run Discworld in D&D, despite how vastly different that setting is from the typical D&D setting, but think it would be too hard to run a horror game with non-human PCs.

A few things. I didn't say non-human PCs. But a rabbit, a turtle and a cat walking into a bar would be more in line with Discworld than Ravenloft. I can absolutely run both settings very well with D&D, because setting doesn't matter to the system, but that doesn't mean that every race or class will fit every setting. You need to curate the options to run D&D and accomplish various goals well.

I feel that you're just being a contrarian for the heck of it.

I almost never do that, and then only to people that have proven themselves to be trolls, which you haven't. At some point when dealing with trolls, I troll them back which sends them into a tizzy since they can't take what they dish out.

Not according to some conspiracy theorists.

Touche. I don't put much stock in what conspiracy theorists say, though.

But orcs aren't Martians and Athas isn't Earth. Why would orcs be any different than any of the other big, buff, violent races that already exist on Athas?

It kinda is, though. Throwing orcs into Athas is going to affect the entire history of the world from the point that they were eradicated to the current time of the Sorcerer Kings. Everything changes because of how interactions work. They would have a big an influence on Athas as martians living here from 10k years ago would have on Earth.

You keep making this claim. Prove it.

I have. It will feel different to me and the others(some of whom are in this thread) who it would feel different to. Done and done. I've proven that it will affect the feeling of the setting for some people.

 

[Maxperson]

look I asked umbra to drop it and I am now asking you.

If you're not a werewolf, the umbra isn't going to listen to you.

 

[Faolyn]

If that's true, then why not just have all humans, and be done with the problem completely?

Well, why not? I'm not advocating for an all-human Dragonlance, but I don't think it would suffer greatly if the different races simply became different human cultures.

 

[Faolyn]

What's the point of settings if DMs are forced to include everything ever published by WotC in the setting? They're all the same then.

Different themes, different genres, different goals, different villain groups, different NPCs, different factions, different religions, different countries...

 

[Maxperson]

now we are back to no it isn't if the ring glowed silver or white or gold does not effect the rest of the book... heck it could be pink with rainbows through it.

And in this you are objectively wrong. Change = change, so it's literally impossible to make a single change and have it be the exact same story. The amount of difference will vary by degree, but you cannot make a change without creating a new story.

the first 2 years the setting was the novels and the adventures... also the time the writer, line editor, story editor, and TSR themselves 'forgot'

So none of that is the Dragonlance setting. The novels aren't a D&D setting at all, and the modules are only a very, very limited setting for the module only, not the setting at large.

I have no need to prove anything.

You keep arguing that change =/= change as you did above when you said, "if the ring glowed silver or white or gold does not effect the rest of the book... heck it could be pink with rainbows through it.", so yes you do need to prove it.

my argument didn't fail you just don't like it...

Here's a fact for you. I don't like it because it alters the feel of the setting for me. Since it alters the feel of the setting for me, your argument that it doesn't change the feel of the setting has failed completely. If you want to restate your argument as, "It doesn't change the feel of the setting for me personally." then I can accept that and you will be correct. As a blanket statement the way you are using it, though, your argument is done.

 

[AnotherGuy]

becuse everything seems to be now... it seems every thread is either 2 pages of cool ideas and joke or 100 of arguments

We definitely need more cool ideas for DL. It cannot be another rehash of ToD, that would be immensely disappointing.

I'd like a timeframe with timed events, some mix into the setting lore, interesting war-time roleplaying events to insert into the campaign, some chaos, effets of trade, possible romance, political espionage, honour loyalty and betrayal, a little bit of what was offered in MiBG with city upheaval, strategical battles affected by prior decisions, character cameo's, fashioning or finding lances, interesting dragon encounters, scaling flying fortresses and crashing them, wizard duels, war

 

[Faolyn]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I would think (using Tolkien as the analogy since that seems to be a common one being used) that replacing Hobbits with Humans changes the whole story. Races in LotR all have a specific purpose where each drives the story in a different way. If you replace hobbits with humans, then the whole discussion with Borimir is moot, and they all go to Gondor with the ring. I can only imagine what would happen in the story if suddenly a race of Tortles were introduced, because I can't see how that wouldn't change things significantly.

I'm not a LotR fan so I could be wrong here but... would the discussion with Boromir still be moot if you were dealing with different castes or social classes or even "races" of humans? If you consider Boromir to be in a warrior or noble class and hobbits to be in a farmer or peasant class, would it still work?