Dragons with Cleric spells

[SableWyvern]

How are cleric spells treated for those dragons that can cast them as arcane spells?

Are they able to choose from the Cleric list and available domains when selecting their sorcerer spells known?

Or do they know all Cleric and available domain spells, in addition to those known as a sorcerer, and use up a sorcerer spells-per-day-slot each time they cast a cleric spell?

I'm close to certain that they don't get additional spells per day as a cleric, since they are casting these spells as arcane spells.

I'm inclined to guess that the second option is the correct one. Opinions and definitive answers would be appreciated.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Are they able to choose from the Cleric list and available domains when selecting their sorcerer spells known?

Yes.

 

[SableWyvern]

Bump.

No-one else has anything to say? I was hoping for more than one word in response.

CRGreathouse: do you have anything to back up that POV, or is it just your particular interpretation? As I said, I'm more inclined to go with the second option.

 

[StealthyMark]

Quote from the SRD:

Spells: A dragon knows and casts arcane spells as a sorcerer of the level indicated in its variety description, gaining bonus spells for a high Charisma score. Some dragons can also cast spells from the cleric list or cleric domains as arcane spells.

A Blue, Red, Brass, Bronze, Copper, Gold or Silver Dragon can choose his known spells from the Sorcerer, the Cleric and his Domain Spell lists. He doesn't gain domain powers or domain spell slots.

 

[Jairami]

Well, both the SRD and the Monster Manual say in the entry for each dragon that has clerical access (everyone except black, green, and white) something like this...

*Can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.

That particular example is from the red dragon's entry right under his stat/flight/special ability chart.

As it says can also cast cleric spells AND those from x, y, and z domains, I have been constructing my dragons as if they had the proper number of spells per day as their caster level and charisma indicated, the proper number of sorcerer spells known as their caster level indicated, plus all available by level cleric spells known, plus all available by level domain spells of those domains known.

So for example, the young red dragon I made has these spell casting abilities.

A more moderate way to handle it would be to say they can choose from their domain spells and the cleric list a spell to have in place of a sorcerer spell known, but neither the text at the beginning of the dragon entry, nor in the individual dragon entries supports or negates this interpretation.

And I am in favor of crafty dragons with great power that are always treated with at least respect, if not fear. And this is one of the reasons in my game that they are. Up to you I guess.

Spells per day:

0 5
1 4

Spells Known:

0 Prestidigitation, Detect Magic, Open/Close, Read Magic
1 Mage Armor, Enlarge, Protection from Law, Protection from Good, Burning Hands, and 1st level cleric spells.

This makes dragons powerful casters who can do many things the average mortal spellcaster cannot, as the average mortal spellcaster specializes in field of study while the dragon dabbles in both arcane and divine spellcasting. (Albeit, both being cast through arcane ability.)

 

[Wolf72]

Big Big list

I just think that the availability of what a can use is huge! ... Picking the right spells now that they almost every spell from the PHb in that lvl is the trick ...

You could use the DMG's arcane/divine tables and roll for it?


... but like above their options are big.


recap: limited number of Known spells, large number to choose from.

 

[Adjudicator]

Dragons that can cast cleric spells and those from X, Y, and Z domains cast them as arcane spells, therefore logic dictates that they use up arcane known spell slots. I.E. The dragon substitutes an arcane spell slot for a divine spell.

If this was intended otherwise then the dragon would cast spells as a Cleric in addition to a Sorcerer instead of just the Sorcerer.

Dragons are immensly powerful as it is, without the help of liberal interpretation. Breath alone can do massive damage, instant kill if not protected or fail save. High BAB + high Strength = great chance for successful attacks and massive damage in melee. Extremely high AC, the can fly, and cast spells. If PC's are killing dragons regularly then something is probably wrong in the campaign.

As for juvenile or younger dragons, they have yet to rise high enough in the food chain to be top level predators and are vulnerable to the predations of opportunistic entities.

Just one opinion, it's your world and run it as you see fit.

 

[ruleslawyer]

I'm weighing in as well on the side of dragons being required to learn cleric spells as if they were sorcerer spells of the same level, if only because the logical extension of the opposite viewpoint (i.e., adding the cleric and domain spell lists to the dragon's list of spells known) effectively would allow red dragons, for example, to cast all cleric and Chaos, Evil, and Fire domain spells spontaneously, making them far better clerics than clerics, so to speak. The entire point of limiting spells known is to offset the power of spontaneous casting; lifting that limitation, in addition to granting access to non-arcane spell lists, is just too much.

 

[Jairami]

<mass public outcry>

Yes. It's huge. It's powerful. It's incredible. But it's also supported in the rules. It doesn't say can CHOOSE spells from cleric AND domains, it says a dragon can CAST spells from cleric and domains.

But as I said, it is neither supported nor negated one way or the other by either of the governing pieces of text. In my games they have full clerical access as spontaneous casters and they are extremely powerful. But they have also not total party killed any groups as yet as they are intelligent and because the death of every party member is not always the most profitable arrangement. Heck, they've even been defeated twice. Through hard planning and brutal combat.

And dragon tactics often speak of aiming for clerics because dragons cannot easily heal themselves. But for my games because of the way both passages are worded, they will continue to have access to clerical spells cast as arcane spells.

I can see you argument of "as arcane spells" dictating they must be chosen from the list of spells known, but in the context of the sentence that doesn't seem to be the case. And it's a stretch at any rate.

Either way, the more moderate way I suggested in my first post is what you seem to agree with, and it is supported by the rules as much as any other way, so I'd recommend sticking with it for your group.

 

[Velenne]

Possible solution to your problem

Is there not an official WoTC adventure with spellcasting dragons in it somewhere? I know they've got some high level adventures and modules out by now, but I've never looked through any of them. Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil maybe?