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Dread Witch PrC and Immunity to Fear

SnowHeart

First Post
Need some help interpretting a rule here. The Dread Witch PrC (from Heroes of Horror) has a class ability called Greater Mastery of Terror. One aspect of this ability is the power to affect creatures normally immune to fear-type spells. Specifically, it reads:

In addition, your fear spells are now so potent that they can even affect individuals normally immune to fear, such as paladins, although the
subject still gains a saving throw to resist the spell’s effect.

I'm trying to determine whether this would apply to creatures that are not specifically immune to fear but are immune to mind-affecting effects (e.g., undead). The argument that it does not is that "immunity to fear" is a specific type of special quality and the example specifically cites such an example (rather than to undead or similar). The argument that it does is that there are exceptionally few creatures immune to fear (I think there are only three in the SRD), and immunity to mind-affecting effects is just a broader category of which immunity to fear is a part.

Thoughts?​
 

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Starbuck_II

First Post
Need some help interpretting a rule here. The Dread Witch PrC (from Heroes of Horror) has a class ability called Greater Mastery of Terror. One aspect of this ability is the power to affect creatures normally immune to fear-type spells. Specifically, it reads:

The argument that it does is that there are exceptionally few creatures immune to fear (I think there are only three in the SRD), and immunity to mind-affecting effects is just a broader category of which immunity to fear is a part.

Thoughts?

Sum up:
You are trying to seperate immunity to fear from immunity to Mind affecting?
Heroes Feast grants immunity to fear.
 

the Jester

Legend
Seems like limiting it to creatures not immune to all mind-affecting effects will limit it very severely, making a mid- or high-level prestige class ability... pretty weak.

I'd rule that it works on mind-affecting-immune things too.
 

SnowHeart

First Post
Sum up:
You are trying to seperate immunity to fear from immunity to Mind affecting?
In a sense, yes. To be more specific, for game-play purposes, determine whether "immunity to fear" is just a sub-part of "immunity to mind-affecting" or if it's just something completely different.

Heroes Feast grants immunity to fear.
Good point. So, question: We're now developing what is a more PC-oriented basis for immunity to fear (maybe other DMs are more creative than I am, but I don't usually have my mobs/hordes/NPCs casting heroes feast on a daily basis). Does that suggest the Dread Witch is perhaps a PrC more designed for DM's and NPCs, or anti-hero campaigns (e.g., fighting paladins)?

Seems like limiting it to creatures not immune to all mind-affecting effects will limit it very severely, making a mid- or high-level prestige class ability... pretty weak.
That's exactly the challenge. Flip-side of this, however, is that with two or three fear spells, the Dread Witch can send a creature into a panic, basically winning the fight. If she can then apply the spells to mind-affecting immune creatures, then what is her weakness (other than perhaps spell immune or high SR creatures)?
 
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krupintupple

First Post
Flip-side of this, however, is that with two or three fear spells, the Dread Witch can send a creature into a panic, basically winning the fight. If she can then apply the spells to mind-affecting immune creatures, then what is her weakness (other than perhaps spell immune or high SR creatures)?

i would think that her weakness is that she increasingly becomes a one-trick pony. without being able to refer to the class directly, it seems that a dread witch gives up normal class progression and benefits for becoming increasingly like the scarecrow from batman.

to the OP, the way i'd read it is exactly as it sounds: mind-affecting or not, if you weren't able to be effect by fear earlier, whether by race, class, ability or power, you can now. simple as that.
 

Persiflage

First Post
Interesting question...

I'm inclined to agree with krupintupple. "Immunity to fear" isn't usually a special quality in the monster-entry sense (although it can be); it's more commonly derived from spells, creature type and class features. As the OP pointed out, immunity to fear in monsters is normally superseded by general immunity to mind-affecting effects.

Interestingly, there are a few spells and effects out there that have the [Fear] type - or otherwise cause the shaken, frightened or panicked states - but aren't listed as [Mind-Affecting]: for instance touch of Vecna [Evil, Fear] and blade of pain and fear [Evocation]. All of which is just to point out that there is precedent for non-mind-affecting fear, which perhaps prepares the ground a bit for creatures immune to mind-affecting effects to feel fear.

(Spell-like or supernatural fear attacks - i.e. those part of a creature's entry - are all mind-affecting as per the slightly-redundant-sounding general description: "All fear attacks are mind-affecting fear effects.")

Sorry about the tangent there.

Anyway, I'm going with the ability overriding "immunity to mind-affecting", for the following reasons (absolutely none of which are RAW):

1) It's frickin' cool. "I am just so badass I can frighten Vampires" is a great thing to be able to claim.

2) Immunity to mind-affecting conditions or not, everything that can do something remotely classifable as "thinking" is subject to fear. OK, it might not be subject to the game effects of fear - shaken, frightened or panicked - but it can feel fear of one sort or another. Vampires fear sunlight, Paladins fear their loved ones having dreadful things happen to them and so on... They're just not usually disabled by their fears, which in mechanical terms means "immune to fear". Vampires will still run from sunlight, Paladins won't dive into molten lava to follow the evil fire-creature unless they've got the right protective magic: a degree of fear is necessary for most creatures and so it makes sense that an ability could exist that inflates the desire for self-preservation to a debilitating level. All Greater Mastery of Terror does is allow "fear" to have a game effect on creatures that it normally wouldn't bother. To me, it's pretty intuitive.

3) If it isn't read that way, it basically doesn't do a damn thing most of the time... except when NPC's use it. Player characters get immunity to fear from gods-know-how-many different spells: it's almost like "immunity to fear" is thrown in for free whenever a spell doesn't look like it does quite enough. A buffed mid-level party is likely to be immune to fear almost as an afterthought. As such, this ability is really useful for NPC's... but when you turn it around for PC use and look at the laundry list of monsters specifically immune to fear, it's pretty damn small.

Nonetheless, if I were running a game where this was brought up, I would make an exception: creatures with no Intelligence score are still immune to fear, because I feel that to say otherwise is counter-intuitive. A Golem will, if so ordered by its master, throw itself into a volcano or saw its own legs off without hesitation and regardless of consequences... How can something like that be afraid? It's no more intelligent than a chair. Same with mindless undead: they're mindless, which means they actually will follow something into a lake of fire or a pool of holy water if their standing orders mean they're supposed to follow it.

(Yeah, I know, but turning and rebuking are "special". I can feel the ice creaking under my feet, but I'm staying put ;) )

In the case of vermin, it's not so cut-and-dried but I'd probably stick with the "no Int, no scared" rule for the sake of simplicity. For some creatures, it makes sense that they could potentially be frightened even if they're normally immune to the ill-effects of same. For others, it just flat-out doesn't compute to have them be afraid, regardless of what they're subjected to.
 

SnowHeart

First Post
Thanks all. This was really quite helpful. Unfortunately, it may be something of a dead issue (already) as the PC was killed today during a fight, but she may yet be resurrected. Persiflage, I really appreciated your thoughtful post and I think that makes a lot of sense. If the character gets rez'd, I think I'll go with your approach.
 

the Jester

Legend
In the case of vermin, it's not so cut-and-dried but I'd probably stick with the "no Int, no scared" rule for the sake of simplicity. For some creatures, it makes sense that they could potentially be frightened even if they're normally immune to the ill-effects of same. For others, it just flat-out doesn't compute to have them be afraid, regardless of what they're subjected to.

Oh, I don't know. I've missed a spider with my shoe before, and the little thing ran for its life.
 

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