Drow - good for anything?

[Aus_Snow]

You say this in bold as if you haven't mentioned it before.

You have.

You say this as though I don't know what I am doing or why.

I do.

We were paying attention.

You say this as though you speak for all (other) ENworlders.

You don't.


It is actually completely apparent why I chose to reiterate that rather obvious point, should one care to take the time to look rather than simply go for the same kind of kneejerk reaction as last time.

 

[Felix]

You say this as though you speak for all (other) ENworlders.

You don't.

Ok.

Was anyone not paying attention to Aus_Snow?

It is actually completely apparent why I chose to reiterate that rather obvious point, should one care to take the time to look rather than simply go for the same kind of kneejerk reaction as last time.

pawsplay was expanding on the idea that Drow will do well when you play a role that works to their strengths. The drow have strengths as well as weaknesses, and he was proposing quite a few character designs that would use their strengths and avoid their weaknesses.

wildstarsreach posted his agreement; pawsplay's was a good analysis.

Aus_Snow disagreed with wildstarsreach that it was a good analysis because pawsplay, in an analysis of how a drow's strengths may be taken advantage of to make a good drow character, failed to mention that the race has a signifigant drawback which makes every drow character weak and vulnerable [despite the past two pages having been taken up with the discussion on how the drow's benefits may or may not be worth two hit dice].

So how does a post attempting to answer "What can a drow do well", which highlights the strengths of the race, fail to be a good analysis because he neglected to mention the (Aus_Snow's) opinion that the loss of two hit dice cripples ("weak and vulnerable") any drow character made?

EDIT:

For example. . . how, in actual play, is it that "a good Cha [even somewhat] makes up for two caster levels" . . .?

An increased CHA will give the drow +1 DC on their spells, as well as grant them more bonus spells. Assume that the 2 HD are a sunk cost: having a +1 to DC and one more bonus spell is better than not having a +1 to DC and more bonus spells. Thus, it somewhat makes up for the loss of 2 HD.

pawsplay did not claim that +2 CHA was worth a 2 HD loss. He claimed that a drow, because the character has no choice as to his race, has already lost 2 HD and the +2 CHA will help him in a sorcerous role, and by taking advantage of the Drow's strength (+2 CHA), you can work towards overcoming the deficit a 2 HD loss creates.

 

[Aus_Snow]

Ok.

Was anyone not paying attention to Aus_Snow?

Any possible answer to that 'question' is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making, as is the 'question' itself. If you choose to conveniently reinterpret my posts, I cannot stop you. However, what I posted there was plain fact. It required, and requires, no interpretation at all.

You do not speak for all (other) ENworlders. This is just true. And that is that. If you do not accept that, then there is truly nothing to add.


Anyway, moving on to something of substance. . .

So how does a post attempting to answer "What can a drow do well", which highlights the strengths of the race, fail to be a good analysis because he neglected to mention the (Aus_Snow's) opinion that the loss of two hit dice cripples ("weak and vulnerable") any drow character made?

Well, here's one particularly pertinent example (there are others):

(of Drow Bards)

[(T)hey are going to have a lot of staying power.

A crucial piece of information evidently did not inform that analysis. That is, the same fundamental thing a small number of people seem to be either persistently unaware of, or committed to denying on an ongoing basis, for their own reasons. The thing I thought I'd post a timely reminder of. . . the very same thing you chose to take issue with, if in a rather ironic way.

pawsplay did not claim that +2 CHA was worth a 2 HD loss.

True, that. Equally true: I did not claim that he so claimed.

(T)he character has no choice as to his race,

There are plenty of different versions of and approaches to 'Drow', plus variants on the One Core Drow. But sure, if a DM decides to use the unbalanced Drow from the MM3.5, as is, and a player chooses to take it, that becomes their (hm, nearly) unavoidable problem until PC death (or campiagn end), yes.

(B)y taking advantage of the Drow's strength (+2 CHA), you can work towards overcoming the deficit a 2 HD loss creates.

Yes well, it is better than nothing, this much is true.

 

[Darklone]

Just to mention it...

Kalamar has LA +0 Drow/Dark elves.

 

[Klaus]

Play nice, kids.

Y'know, if drow were given racial HD, the LA could be reduced. I mean, gnolls get killer stat adjustments, have 2HD and only +1 LA. An unclassed gnoll gnoll and a 1st-level drow both are ECL 3.

 

[pawsplay]

I disagree that a loss of two hit dice dooms a character from the start. If you start the campaign at ECL 3, yes, the drow is going to have to be very careful. If you start at ECL 4, I think a well played drow is viable, so long as you avoid some of the worse choices I pointed out above.

I did, however, forget to mention another bad drow choice: the drow monk. No Wis bonus, penalty to Str and Con means serious MAD problems, with only a bonus to Dex to help you gain ground. Less hit dice means delay of unarmed attack progression, lower stunning fist DCs, a weaker BAB for an already weak BAB melee class, and less hit points. This is one of the few characters that would almost always benefit from becoming an enlightened fist or fist of zuokon or something... anything that allows you to use your stunning fist in non-DC-based ways or boost damage is going to help, and some to hit bonuses would be really nice. Plus, you'll be feat starved, particularly if you want daylight adaptation.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Play nice, kids.

Y'know, if drow were given racial HD, the LA could be reduced. I mean, gnolls get killer stat adjustments, have 2HD and only +1 LA. An unclassed gnoll gnoll and a 1st-level drow both are ECL 3.

Where does it say that they have racial HD. Nowhere that I read. If they had 2 racial HD then they would wind up being equal according to the rules of a 5th level character at 1st level.

 

[wildstarsreach]

Hey guys, this exchange is getting a little heated and boarding a flame war. How about taking a deep breath and relaxing.

 

[Seeten]

I am perfectly relaxed. Its unfortunate that some people hate Drow to such an extent that they misrepresent things to say +2 LA is good for a spellcaster, though, when in fact it makes them almost unplayable.

Starting at ECL 4, all you have to do is be careful?

If you are a wizard, with a con of 12, thats using a 14 on con, mind you! you have 8 hp. *8*. A single sword swing from an orc with NO strength bonus drops you. You have 1st level spells.

Other party members have upwards of nearly 50 hp. You have 8. With first level spells.

Have you EVER played these combos you claim are so great?

 

[Darklone]

I managed to keep a 30 hp melee char at level 7 alive for a pretty long time... gawds forbid I would have had to do it with a drow

Ruleswise, the best drow choice is psion with that nice Psionic Body feat.