Drow - good for anything?

[IanB]

I find this argument to be the most convincing of those that I have seen in this thread.

It's not that the drow need stronger bonuses for their LA, it's that they need different bonuses to make them good at the things they should be good at.

Ah, but they do just fine at the things they should be good at, when used in the context for which they were designed - as NPCs. Level adjustments are irrelevant then; if you need to use a higher level drow cleric, you just do.

Why should a traditionally evil NPC race necessarily still be good at doing their traditionally evil activities when turned into a PC? Many, if not most, games, don't allow evil PCs at all.

 

[irdeggman]

The orb spells are ranged touch attack spells - so races with a plus to Dex are better off against them since Dex applies to AC while natural armor, armor and shields do not.

The ranges are also generally close and since it is an attack it is subject to the miss chance of concealment that darkness grants.

So a drow with the plus to Dex, the darkness ability (true only 1/day but it is still available) and the 120 ft darkvision comes out ahead a lot more often here.

Remember the character tossing the orb spells almost always has a poor BAB and must boost Dex to maximize their usefulness.

So while the drow suffer - they suffer when hit but gain to avoid the hit in the first place.

 

[IanB]

I think I suggested on Page 4 or 5 that males have +2 int -2 wis, and females have +2 cha and -2 con, although +2 wis and +2 cha with -2 con is also balanced, half-orcs tell us. I'd go with just cha and con, though, for females, so both males and females have balanced ability scores and are +1 la from SR and other abilities.

I don't think that you can necessarily draw that conclusion from half-orcs. My feeling is that a boost to a mental stat is a far bigger plus than a minus to a mental stat is a minus. (That was a tortured sentence but hopefully you understand what I mean.) There's a reason that most of the spell DC boosting abilities in 3.0 were nerfed or removed with the move to 3.5.

And yes, I don't think I would allow a grey/sun elf character in my games without a level adjustment. They'd need some more minor extras to get them to a full +1, but boosting spell DCs is huge in my opinion.

 

[Seeten]

I believe its outright stated in the dmg.

 

[Seeten]

Ah, but they do just fine at the things they should be good at, when used in the context for which they were designed - as NPCs. Level adjustments are irrelevant then; if you need to use a higher level drow cleric, you just do.

Why should a traditionally evil NPC race necessarily still be good at doing their traditionally evil activities when turned into a PC? Many, if not most, games, don't allow evil PCs at all.

You mean when rule 0'd to have as many HP's as you want them to have?

For their CR they are incredibly weak challenges, there is a Wizards article on the very subject, I believe by Mearls.

 

[IanB]

You mean when rule 0'd to have as many HP's as you want them to have?

For their CR they are incredibly weak challenges, there is a Wizards article on the very subject, I believe by Mearls.

That is a flaw with the CR system and classed humanoids of any kind, and is not, in my opinion, drow-specific.

 

[Klaus]

Not many. It is the fact there are getting to be a fair amount of those spells out these. RThe 3.5 core has two notable ones at low level... Glitterdust {taking sight away on a Will save at second level..bad, bad, bad. [Melphs}Acid arrow is not that bad since the damage is low in compensation and can be washed away. The Orbs though...

There's also the Reserve Feats. They're Supernatural abilities, and bypass SR.

Another class drow are pretty good at: Scout. The class is all about not standing there and taking hits, so a drow Scout won't suffer near as much from the low hp.

Scout, Warlock, Hexblade, Paladin of Slaughter... I'm sensing that drow excel at supplemental classes...

 

[WarlockLord]

SR doesn't apply against evard's black tentacles, binder abilities, incarnum...

As for "people don't know drow have SR..."

Rangers probably know it, as they would know a lot about various creatures. "Know thine enemy"

Wizards should, as they have a lot of knowledge. Warmages should, as most of them would be trained in "How to fight x"...when x has spell resistance.

Bards, loremasters, etc. should too...

The drow are supposed to be a feared evil menace. I'm sure "drow have SR" is common knowledge, probably from accounts of surface elf wizards.

"I hit him with 3 fireballs, and he kept coming! I hit him again, and again, and again! He kept coming!"

I'm sure accounts like that would circulate quickly.

 

[Felix]

As for "people don't know drow have SR..."

Rangers probably know it

Knowledge (Dungeoneering): To know about Underdark denizens.
Favored Enemy: To know about Drow specifically.

Wizards should ... Warmages should

Knowledge (Dungeoneering): To know about Underdark denizens.
Knowledge (Arcane): To know about creatures with SR.
Spellcraft: To know about SR and ways to circumvent.

Bards, loremasters, etc. should

The check is 1d20 + Int + Levels in the class. The DC would be set by the DM based on the availablility of the information.

"I hit him with 3 fireballs, and he kept coming! I hit him again, and again, and again! He kept coming!"

I'm sure accounts like that would circulate quickly.

The same effect could be because of a Rogue with Evasion, a Fighter with high HP, or resistance to Fire.

I just don't see that simply because something is hard to kill with magic it must necessarily have SR. If the DM lets the casters of spells know that their spells failed due to SR, then they will have a clue, otherwise it would take special knowledge, or speaking with someone who does have special knowledge.

And are you sure you can always take NPCs' advice to heart?

 

[IanB]

Drow, as humanoids, would actually be covered by knowledge (local) I believe. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense, though, and knowledge (dungeoneering) is probably the best alternate choice.

Bardic knowledge doesn't give you things like resistances and vulnerabilities for monster types as such.