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Dungeon Mastering as a Fine Art

Sure, but a game can be destroyed by bad DMing as surely as a house by fire. :)

So good analogy, imo.

Well, I would agree with you if you change "most people" to "newbies" for limitations. Most bad GMs I've played under were bad mostly because they weren't malleable enough to player suggestions or to odd things happening during the game (on either side of the screen, I consider "no" a four-letter word). Advice on how to deal with these kinds of things would help GMs with some games under their belt.

In fact, I'm all for using the KISS principle for GMing advice in Starter sets. But the main game's DMG should indeed have all the tools any good DM needs to run his game, including the fact that all of the rules are suggestions (excellent suggestions, as they are presumably playtested, but suggestions nonetheless).
 

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In fact, I'm all for using the KISS principle for GMing advice in Starter sets. But the main game's DMG should indeed have all the tools any good DM needs to run his game, including the fact that all of the rules are suggestions (excellent suggestions, as they are presumably playtested, but suggestions nonetheless).

Definitely, but I think it needs heavy caveats, not being treated casually.
 

The "rules" are a system to help organize and structure play in a fictional universe. They help answer questions like: "I swing my sword at the orc, what happens?" Unfortunately, practical limits mean that the "rules" cannot be designed in such a way to be applicable in all possible scenarios. Even with a 10,000 page Core Rulebook the simulation will break down. Most RPGs employ a DM to use common sense to determine when and to what extent the "rules" are applicable to the current scenario. Rule 0 is the explicit statement to this effect (or permission, if you will). In this sense, RPG "rules" are not rules in the manner of games like Monopoly, Poker or a tactical war game, they are "guidelines" or "tools" that give DMs and players a common framework and language to resolve fictional events in a consistent, coherent and enjoyable way.

In the parlance of design, this is a feature, not a bug. You can play an MMORPG (for example) all you want, but you can never leave the edge of the map. You can never attempt something that isn't pre-programmed into your character's skill set. You can only follow pre-ordained quest lines and goals and never devise your own. In TTRPGs, the DM can, using their creativity and the system as a guideline, determines what happens in these situations. In my mind, this is what makes it great.

I don't see how you could possibly reduce the DM's role to "Arbiter of Rules". Consider this scenario:

The party has defeated the dragon [using the adventure encounter and combat rules] and want to take its treasure horde back to town. Unfortunately/fortunately, the party and their hirelings can't possibly carry the entire pile themselves [using encumbrance rules]. They discuss it and hit upon the idea of going back to the orc encampment they wiped out to grab some wheelbarrows to haul the treasure. The DM looks at the encampment section in the purchased adventure and doesn't see any specific notes of wheelbarrows but the orcs had been using goblins as slave labor to build a massive series of earthworks. Wheelbarrows would be plausible in this concept, even if the adventure doesn't explicitly mention them. Should the DM nix the players' idea, make a roll or just say there is a wheelbarrow there? Let's suppose the DM decides that rolling a 1d6 is the most impartial method. On a 4+ there's a wheelbarrow. The players are lucky and find one.

The players load up the wheelbarrow but its still not enough. They ask if they can drag some of the chest back to town. The DM checks the rules and doesn't find anything about dragging chests but decides that it should be possible (Why the heck not? People drag stuff all the time). He looks at encumbrance rules again and judges that such a set up will cause the group to move at 1/2 the slowest movement rate possible.

It will be a long trek back to town from the dragon's lair and the DM switches to the overland travel section of the adventure, which states there is a 1 in 6 chance of wandering monsters every hour. The DM considers the situation (the overburdened, slow-moving group with a wheelbarrow, dragging chests through the wilderness) and decides to implement Rule 0 by saying they are making so much noise they will attract notice on a 2 in 6 chance each hour, despite the fact that rules or adventure say anything of the sort. The DM judges that the situation that the party is in has deviated enough from the assumed situation in the rules and adventure that it no longer applies.

The DM rolls the checks and, on the fourth hour, a 1 comes up. Another roll on the table provided by the adventure gets 4 ogres. The table describes the band as "greedy and cowardly". Using the standard encounter rules and the party's actions, the encounter starts of as a parlay rather than a combat. The party doesn't want a fight and try to bride the ogres with some of their treasure. Using the greedy and cowardly descriptor of the ogres, the DM decides that this is worth a bonus on their interaction rolls. The party ends up buying off the ogres with the two chests the fighter was tired of hauling around anyway. However, the DM also judges that the ogres have now spied the massive treasure that is within their grasp and decides that the ogres, being cowardly and greedy, will attempt to follow the party, hoping to ambush them in a moment of weakness (despite the fact that nothing in the adventure or the rules says to do so).

And, thus, play continues.
 

I don't see how you could possibly reduce the DM's role to "Arbiter of Rules".

You could, theoretically, do it by having rules for all those things! Obviously that'd be completely impractical, but frankly, some of the more horrifyingly complex implementations of some rules-sets, like GURPS or FUZION, came surprisingly close! ;)

PS - I <3 your name so much.
 

I imagine the sigh is because Ahn argues in favor of this style of play to the point where he claims that this is the one true way of playing because of toss away lines like this appear in most dmg's.

The fact that some of us reject this as railroading and think this is generally terrible advice has caused some disagreement.
Even prior to the question of whether it's good or bad advice is the question - what is it advice for?

I don't think Gygax is meaning that the GM can override a to hit roll or damage roll at any time. He's talking primarily about all the rolls in classic D&D that are associated with framing situations and the pace of the adventure (eg wandeing monster rolls, finding secret door rolls, open lock rolls, etc).
 

Also, have you, as a DM, ever, in actual reality, been confined by lack of DM tools to the point where your game meaningfully suffered? I ask because I sure haven't! Seems like such a far-fetched problem.

Yes I have. But not in the direction of not having enough power. What I've occasionally lacked (in Feng Shui of all things) is low powered tools and scopes. I had a tank gun I could load with flechettes, and I had heavy machine gun on my tank. But what I really wanted and the game didn't give me was a supersoaker.

I've never had, seen, or heard of problems with the DM not having powerful enough tools where the problem was remotely ingame rather than one that should have had the player banned.
 

You could, theoretically, do it by having rules for all those things! Obviously that'd be completely impractical, but frankly, some of the more horrifyingly complex implementations of some rules-sets, like GURPS or FUZION, came surprisingly close! ;)

PS - I <3 your name so much.

Thanks...my wands are as powerful as staves!

But, yeah, taken to its extreme you could posit a future gaming system (ala a Star Trek holodeck) that is so complex that the simulation becomes indistinguishable from reality (or some desired version of reality) and can handle anything you can throw it. Unfortunately, D&D doesn't come close and, thus, we must use the human brain as a poor man's substitute.

I also don't agree that the solution to "A DM can run a game into the ground" is "Force DMs to run the game on auto-pilot". The solutions are "Help the DM learn how to fly" or "Fly with a different DM".
 

Then we are on the same page here. I'm objecting forcefully here to someone who does think that there is One True Way (and one that doesn't take into account the majority of old school approaches as well as any new school at that). There is not one old way and one new way, but a plethora of both. And all are welcome. Claiming one single old school method (or one single method from any source) is the sum total of the hobby is what I am objecting to here.

That is why I deliberately tried to avoid the main debate. I was just calling out the snippet where you implied old school meant model-T and the new stuff was 2014 or whatever. My sole point was that the game is not necessarily improving when it gets a new style. Instead it is varying and for some people that is good because the variant is an improvement for them. The implication when you say model-T is that the old school approaches are objectively inferior in some way.

Perhaps you did this thoughtlessly or perhaps it reveals your mindset about your own preferences or both. Either way it is annoying to people who enjoy the old school game and feel they are being told they like out of date old technology. Kind of like telling some of us to go play on our atari 2600 and leave the big boys to the PS4 or XBox One.
 

I also don't agree that the solution to "A DM can run a game into the ground" is "Force DMs to run the game on auto-pilot". The solutions are "Help the DM learn how to fly" or "Fly with a different DM".

I don't know who suggested that, though. Can you quote whoever it was?

I've repeatedly and I think extremely clearly said that the solution is "explain how to DM in detail before you introduce the concept of fiat, and tell people not to use it unless they have to", which I think is precisely what you're saying.
 

That is why I deliberately tried to avoid the main debate. I was just calling out the snippet where you implied old school meant model-T and the new stuff was 2014 or whatever. My sole point was that the game is not necessarily improving when it gets a new style. Instead it is varying and for some people that is good because the variant is an improvement for them. The implication when you say model-T is that the old school approaches are objectively inferior in some way.

Perhaps you did this thoughtlessly or perhaps it reveals your mindset about your own preferences or both. Either way it is annoying to people who enjoy the old school game and feel they are being told they like out of date old technology. Kind of like telling some of us to go play on our atari 2600 and leave the big boys to the PS4 or XBox One.

I drive a 75 Vette. It's objectively inferior to most modern cars. I like driving it anyway & I don't care if newer cars are objectively, measurably better. I have fun doing my thing.

"Your gas mileage is terribad, you got no passenger side mirror, no airbags, no trunk, no back seat, and this thing smells like an oil field on fire - how can you drive this? Spend a couple bucks and get something from this millenium!"

Eh - don't care. I love what I love. And I'm not offended if someone has a different feeling about it.
 

Into the Woods

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