Dungeon Mastering as a Fine Art

The thing to me is that it's important that whatever evil there is, you don't half-ass it. I hate faux evil.

Well, at least we agree on one thing! I know I've played with people who uncomfortable with really nasty evil (and I don't mean rape-y or genocidal or the like, just like, just utterly without remorse, utterly ruthless, do anything/kill anyone kind of evil), and prefer "Hollywood Evil", so I don't always push it that hard when DMing. Makes it stand out when I do, too!

Modern Western culture's problem with evil is complex - people are happy for it to be graphic as long as it's OTT or involves figures like terrorists and serial killers, but they're completely uncomfortable with stuff like routine, horrifying domestic violence, people starving because of greed, companies dumping terrifying waste with no care for the consequences, and any kind of evil that isn't "thrilling" on some level, that's just depressing/upsetting. So we ignore most of the evil in the world.

All that said I'm not sure that's necessarily a good topic for RPGs, either, unless the group is up for it.
 

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Bawylie

A very OK person
Now that the drive by snark fest has past, let us return to our Vader example.

Now imagine this in actual play. Vader's player had sunk tons of table time into this plan. He had to go to Bespin and cow Lando. Then set up the ambush and capture Han and the others. All of this leads into the Big Showdown. Fantastic battle ensues between Vader and Luke.

And Vader's player quite deliberately avoids killing Luke which he likely could have done at any point.

Vader wins. Luke is on the ropes and Vader drops the big reveal. Luke's mentors have been lying to him all along. What else are they lying about. Vader makes his pitch....

And the DM ignores all of the above and Luke escapes.

Do people really feel like this is good gaming? Honestly? You would be perfectly fine with this?

You guys must have much more understanding players than I have ever met.

Yeah, I respect my players' agency enough to let them fail when they make a bad decision.

Vader's Player's problem wasn't his planning or his execution - all those things were well thought-out and competently executed. The failure was in misunderstanding the character of NPC Luke. Vader offered power when the available evidence suggested Luke's motivation was care for others. (Heck Vader's trap was baited by torturing Luke's friends). Vader's Player ought to have known better, but failed because he overplayed his hand.
 

Ahnehnois

First Post
All that said I'm not sure that's necessarily a good topic for RPGs, either, unless the group is up for it.
In terms of DMing advice, I think GR's Advanced Gamemaster's Manual has the cleanest take on it, and sets up categories of "how far do you want to go".

The thing to me is to make that decision clear and abide by it consistently.
 

Celebrim

Legend
It's all about presentation.

I'm a substance over style sort of guy. For one thing, all I hear is you saying fundamentally the same thing. The nuance in your presentation, I don't get.

In any event, if this becomes a question of what you should actually say, it's neither "Yes." nor "No." A good DM should recognize that the real problem here is that the player requesting to know exactly what is over his head through a solid object has become disengaged from the fiction. So the real thing that you should say should be something in fiction to try to redirect the player back into the fiction. Meanwhile, you should be trying to figure out why the character is disengaged from the fiction, which I would guess has something to do with player confusion about why they are in the sewers in the first place.

I'd probably say something like:

"Staring up at the roof of the sewer, you see only an unbroken arch of bricks held in place by what looks like some sort of concrete. Cockroaches cling to the bricks by the dozens. Attempting to bore through the bricks with your eyes reveals nothing. The roof could be 5 feet thick or 5000 for all you can tell by looking at it. Around you there is nothing but a slow moving stream of grey water about 12" deep, with fecal matter leisurely drifting back down the way you came. To the sides there are 12" clay pipes at intervals of about every 30 yards and intersecting the main passage near the top. A thin stream of water or urine drizzles down from the nearest one. Everything reeks of ammonia and waste leaving you short of breath."

I'd cut that shorter depending on how much I'd already told them, or elaborate in a different way about the details of what they see. In this case, there is no real need to say, "Yes or no." You just narrate the consequences of their action.

There are all sorts of ways to interact with this scene:

a) You could attempt to listen for sounds coming from the ceiling or the side pipes.
b) You could analyze the feces.
c) You could probe around in the water for trash.
d) You could ask how long ago the bricks might have been laid.
e) You could cast an information gathering spell.
f) If the player has 'scent', 'deep sense' or other unique sensing abilities, you could prompt your DM for further information about the odors to see if you can discriminate anything other than the smells of usage, or remind your DM that you can 'feel' how far below ground you are (if he's forgotten).
g) You could beg for divine intervention.

The burden is on the players to tell you how they might learn something. Once they have a plan, then you can ascertain whether they might learn something, which may or may not involve a skill check.

If the players are inept or inexperienced, you may need to prompt them with suggestions. If the players are bored, you may need to prompt them to remember the clues they have that they aren't putting together, and you might need to scan your sewer encounter table for ideas that might advance the story out of its current rut. That could be almost anything. If your party has a druid, a wandering rat becomes a possible information channel. Or, if the PCs have a retainer/henchmen, it might be time to open up a dialogue with the party through the NPC, "Remind me. Why did we come down into this retched sewer again?"

I like that my players get to contribute to the story of the game, otherwise, I feel like I'm reading them my novel and I get bored quickly.

Players contribute by proposing courses of action and asking pertinent questions about what they see. Inept players have to be trained out of their passivity, incuriosity, and reluctance to engage what surrounds them. Ironically, novice players - and particularly young players - rarely have these faults. 'Grown-ups' are more likely to be the ones that have forgotten how to play.

Sure, you need to reign in outrageous ideas, but even outrageous ideas have a kernel of plausibility somewhere in them.

Plausibility might not even be the most important point. What interests me most is why a player is offering outrageous ideas, and what sort of precedent I might be setting by going along with it. Does he want more spot light? Does he want his cunning or creativity validated? Is he just not thinking things through, or forgotten a key point? Is he bored and trying to make his own entertainment? Have I failed to set the scene appropriately? Is there something important in my mental picture I failed to mention. Is there a key point I've forgotten, like say an iron grate in the ceiling through which you might catch glimpses of the town. Is the current brainstorming likely to go anywhere? Is he upset and deliberately trying to wreck play? Am I putting improper focus on something that doesn't deserve it? Is the player acting irrationally because for some reason he thinks this is what I 'want' him to do? The real answer isn't "Yes" or "No", it's the answer to questions like, "What do I do to get my players to understand and properly interact with the scene that they are in? How can I recapture the players attention? Can I get the game moving again in a way that doesn't break suspension of disbelief?" The real problem with an outrageous suggestion is that the player has clearly become disconnected from the character and the scene, and probably has gone mentally entirely verbal and doesn't 'see' what you've described or imagine themselves being in it.

Usually my response is going to be trying to force the players imagination back in game. Show don't tell. I'm only going to go with an out of fiction answer like, "Yes" or "No", and an explanation if things are going terribly wrong.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
"Show; don't tell," is good. But what about another approach?

If you believe your players are disengaged (and I don't think asking what's above them necessarily indicated disengagement, but let's assume it means that for now), then you could TELL, instead of show.

Players asking "what's up above me in these sewers?" presumably want that information. Why not let them gloss over the boring bits and get what they want. Move to diegesis.

"After some investigation, you conclude the only way to tell what's above you is to look. [Rogue] climbs the nearest drainage and peers about to discover blah blah blah." Then you go down periscope and ask what they do next.

Or, go further. Tell how the sewer portion concludes and put them in the next scenario. Fast forward & change scenes.
 

Celebrim

Legend
"Show; don't tell," is good. But what about another approach?

If you believe your players are disengaged (and I don't think asking what's above them necessarily indicated disengagement, but let's assume it means that for now), then you could TELL, instead of show.

You can, and I didn't leave out that possibility, but that approach is fraught with danger.

Players asking "what's up above me in these sewers?" presumably want that information. Why not let them gloss over the boring bits and get what they want. Move to diegesis.

"After some investigation, you conclude the only way to tell what's above you is to look. [Rogue] climbs the nearest drainage and peers about to discover blah blah blah." Then you go down periscope and ask what they do next.

The danger is that this relationship has been inverted by your choice of diegesis. You aren't really asking what they do next. Rather, now you are training your players to ask you what to do next. By opening a door for them, you're risking a situation where the party only knows how to advance by prompting you to tell them how they should advance. They've become passengers. It might be appropriate to provide prompting about how they can interact with the environment, but you have to understand that in doing so, you are more or less communicating to the players, "This is what you should do." or "This is what I want you to do." Neither is necessarily the case, and in the later case, what I really want them to do is learn to take some initiative on their own or move the scene on in some manner.

Worse, the very situation where it might be most appropriate to prompt the character how they might interact with something, that is - you have inexperienced players - is the very case where they might learn from this example not to do anything without prompting.

All of this is why I suggested looking for something organic to the environment as a means of prompting the change of scene.

Or, go further. Tell how the sewer portion concludes and put them in the next scenario. Fast forward & change scenes.

This is also potentially a tool in the toolbox. It could be the sewer is a distraction, a blind hunt because they missed important clues earlier, a wild goose chase, a red herring, or just the players thinking that because there is a sewer you must intend for them to go down to it (after all, every exit of a cRPG is just exactly that, something you are supposed to find and explore and will be rewarded for doing so). So yes, you may need to do a scene bang of some sort to move the game along if it has stalled. But that to carries dangers. Hard scene framing are one important railroading technique, because again, you are effectively telling the players what they choose to do. The players are once again passengers that you are picking up and moving along to their destination with no chance of disembarking from the ride save where you intend them do so.

Again, I'm not even arguing that railroading is always bad. But you ought to be cognizant of when you are doing it and what the potential pitfalls are.

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?298368-Techniques-for-Railroading
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
Hmmm...

I think you hit those pitfalls if you reframe scenarios unprompted.

But working with your assumption, that the players have lost interest and are otherwise unengaged, we have tangible evidence that our current efforts aren't working. They gave US the prompt (What's above us?) and THEN we ran with it. This does not make them passengers (it would have done if we moved them unprompted).

I'll assume a "Scene Bang" is some kind of Call to Action. Skipping ahead or glossing over parts that the players aren't interested in isn't a call to action. Its pacing. And it doesn't require choosing their actions for them.

In a way, all you're really doing is skipping over crappy non-choices. The scenario is already constructed such that they've chosen to accomplish a goal. Do you want to keep accomplishing? isn't a meaningful choice. So you don't force anything if you skip their unengaged rear-ends to a portion of the game where their actions have meaning.

I'm reasonably sure scene bang is useless or worthless for framing in an RPG for that exact reason.
 

Bawylie

A very OK person
I'll tell you what else, let's assume that a hypothetical doesn't have any unforeseen pitfalls apart from those established in the hypothetical.

I've discussed alternatives to doubling-down on the current scene, and you came back with "What about newbies?" Come on.

Now, if they ARE newbies, AND they're asking what's above them, there is NO harm in moving to a diegetic sequence and giving them the information they want. It's better than waiting while the blindly poke around until they guess the right thing to do. This would be extra-effective, if after giving them the information they want, you ask them what they do now.

I believe that when players have all the information that's feasibly available, they are enabled and empowered to make informed decisions.

Newbies do become "passengers" when faced with decisions that cannot be made except at random. "Where are we?" "You don't know - now do you want to go straight, right or left?" These are non-choices. They lack the context that would make them meaningful.

So I'm not saying seize their agency - I'm saying empower them to decide and ask for their decision.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Hmmm...

I think you hit those pitfalls if you reframe scenarios unprompted.

I believe that you did. You knew the player wanted to know what was above him, so you told him not only, "You can find out by climbing up a pipe." but that he did in fact climb up a pipe (and back down again to say what's he's seen). That's two choices you are making for the player without player prompts. And while it might have low harm in this case if its the thing the player would have done himself and the question of, "Can I squeeze up the pipe safely?" is, "Yes.", it's I think a bad habit to get into as a DM because it tends to lead to players that expect you to provide their actions and DMs that gloss over opportunities for player input without thinking about it. For example, I've one player in the party whose character would almost certainly look around, loot, and then come back down.

They gave US the prompt (What's above us?) and THEN we ran with it. This does not make them passengers (it would have done if we moved them unprompted).

I think you ran too far with it without passing it back. In fact, I'm not sure that on the whole you should have caught the ball in the first place.

I'll assume a "Scene Bang" is some kind of Call to Action.

Yes, it's when you skip ahead to a meaningful choice or scenario. It's not a bad idea and everyone does it to some extent for the sake of, as you say, pacing, but in scene frame that is non-continuous and not explicitly authorized by player intent risks glossing over player choice. It's almost always in a DM's interest to wait for clear consent, stopping and saying, "The corridor continues forward without feature as far as your light allows. Do you want to follow it until you find something?" and even, "Four hundred yards later, the corridor is as straight as ever, about how far do you want to walk before considering turning back?

In a way, all you're really doing is skipping over crappy non-choices.

Ideally yes, but all too often the same technique is used to consciously or unconsciously steer the players into making the choice the GM wants.

So you don't force anything if you skip their unengaged rear-ends to a portion of the game where their actions have meaning.

If the situation is linear, I suppose so. But if there are 6 or 60 different approaches, opening one door means leaving the other 5 or 59 closed (and often invisibly closed).

I'm reasonably sure scene bang is useless or worthless for framing in an RPG for that exact reason.

I don't use explicit bangs very often for that reason. But, sometimes its appropriate. For example, if the PC's propose to undertake long distance travel, anything that potentially breaks up the monotony of that journey before they reach the destination is basically a hard scene frame and a bang. "Your ship is attacked by Pirates! Now what?" If the players propose to walk across town, and they run into a brawl between members of the masons guild and the teamsters guild, that's a bang. Everyone uses them when the group has agreed to a handwave, but you as GM know or discover that something happens before the completion of the handwave.

I try to avoid it and play with more continuous framing otherwise.

I've discussed alternatives to doubling-down on the current scene, and you came back with "What about newbies?" Come on.

I think you misunderstand. I think your opening a door out of the scene and/or shoving them through it is most appropriate with newbies, but perversely most likely to go wrong if you make a pattern of it. With experienced players, I wouldn't advice as much hand holding as you are suggesting. And in any event, I wouldn't handwave a player action without explicit permission.

Now, if they ARE newbies, AND they're asking what's above them, there is NO harm in moving to a diegetic sequence and giving them the information they want. It's better than waiting while the blindly poke around until they guess the right thing to do. This would be extra-effective, if after giving them the information they want, you ask them what they do now.

Again, I agree. If you are going to prompt players to take action, it's newbs that most justify you doing so. I said that back in the original post that started this subthread. But I don't agree that there is no potential harm.

I believe that when players have all the information that's feasibly available, they are enabled and empowered to make informed decisions.

I believe you risk linearity and false choices by pushing solutions on the players in the guise of informing them.

Newbies do become "passengers" when faced with decisions that cannot be made except at random. "Where are we?" "You don't know - now do you want to go straight, right or left?" These are non-choices. They lack the context that would make them meaningful.

If you'd read the thread I linked to above, you would have discovered that I advocated judicious use of railroading techniques 4 years ago and with abundant discussion of my reasoning and how to do it artfully, precisely for the reason you are bringing up here.

So I'm not saying seize their agency - I'm saying empower them to decide and ask for their decision.

Whenever you hint to the player what they should do, or push the player to do a particular thing, or narrate to the player what they did without the player actually proposing to do it, you risk seizing player agency.
 


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