Eberron-as corny as I think?

[rounser]

Of course, so has every single D&D setting (or metasetting) ever published.

Not really true...I mean, orcs, drow and halflings are a tad thin on the ground on Krynn, for instance. Dark Sun was customised quite heavily as well...I'm sure there are other examples.

 

[green slime]

There is a huge conspiracy built into the rules - the DM challenges the party with encounters that they can handle at that level. There's probably half a dozen more that relate back to D&D being a game, as well.

Nope. Don't agree with this statement. There are always encounters in which players can get themselves in over their head. At least at tables I play at. From displaying bad ettiquette at the royal banquette, to single-handedly standing against superior foes, both in number and CR. If every encounter is one the PCs can enter and say "We can handle this," it makes the game boring and predictable and very video gamish, preventing the real heroes from truly shining, and seeking other ways of overcoming their foes.

When the PCs are level 18, they're in an excellent position to hang a good deal of the NPC world out to dry, if they wanted to. Explain to me why most parties don't do that - I suspect it's an unspoken agreement with the DM not to ruin the game....there's only so far alignment can guarantee good behaviour (e.g. a neutral good merchant might still rip you off).

I disagree again. It maybe because they don't want to have more enemies than absolutely necessary. No matter your level, you still only have a limited amount of things you can do in any one area, at any one time. And there is always someone, bigger and badder around the corner. Ticking a lot of good people off, just because you can, isn't necessarily the brightest idea in the book. But, give some people enough rope...

And IMC, a NG merchant won't consciously rip you off. But that is another discussion entirely.

 

[rounser]

Nope. Don't agree with this statement. There are always encounters in which players can get themselves in over their head. At least at tables I play at. From displaying bad ettiquette at the royal banquette, to single-handedly standing against superior foes, both in number and CR. If every encounter is one the PCs can enter and say "We can handle this," it makes the game boring and predictable and very video gamish, preventing the real heroes from truly shining, and seeking other ways of overcoming their foes.

Well duh, third level PCs attempting to assassinate the King of the Realm are probably going to have a hard time of it. But then, he's usually not the adventure at that level, is he?

What I mean is stuff like the adventure paths from WOTC and Paizo not throwing CR 20 monsters at first level PCs, and spending a lot of painstaking time making challenges which challenge but don't overwhelm the PCs or constantly allow them walkover. You can't seriously be arguing that such metagaming doesn't exist, and isn't built into the game, can you? Am I imagining all that EL and CR stuff? Bueller?

I disagree again. It maybe because they don't want to have more enemies than absolutely necessary. No matter your level, you still only have a limited amount of things you can do in any one area, at any one time. And there is always someone, bigger and badder around the corner. Ticking a lot of good people off, just because you can, isn't necessarily the brightest idea in the book. But, give some people enough rope...

Sounds like handwaving. 18th level PC rogue can sure rob a lot of 1st and 2nd level NPCs before anyone even notices something is very wrong, for instance. But then, they're not likely to be "the adventure" at that level, just like killing the King of the Realm is unlikely to be an intended course of action to succeed at for the 3rd level PCs described above.

And IMC, a NG merchant won't consciously rip you off. But that is another discussion entirely.

Must be a lot of poor good alignment merchants in your campaign, then.

 

[DragonLancer]

How did Eberron become a major D&D setting? It doesn't seem like fantasy at all. I mean, it has robots warforged and airplanes airships. It seems like somebody was trying to make "science fictasy"

I played through half an Eberron campaign last year (game fell apart because of RL matters in the DM's life) and I gave it a chance. Ultimately I didn't like it.

People out there can jump me for my opinion here, but IMO Eberron is not D&D. For me it doesn't work.

 

[Deadguy]

While I don't agree with your conclusion DragonLancer, you do have the courtesy to say 'for me'. Others seem to be taking the stance that people who like Eberron (and there really are a lot), are plain wrong for enjoying this D&D setting.

 

[Storm Raven]

How did Eberron become a major D&D setting? It doesn't seem like fantasy at all. I mean, it has robots warforged and airplanes airships. It seems like somebody was trying to make "science fictasy"

Eberron is probably more like a lot of the original source material that inspired the creation of D&D than just about any other published setting. Edgar Rice Burroughs, Jack Vance, Poul Anderson and so on all contained numerous elements that would be right at home in Eberron.

 

[Mystery Man]

I used to hate it, now I like it. My players can be thanked for relentlessly nagging me to run an game in it. While nothing will ever replace the Forgotten Realms for my setting of choice I can't ever see myself not running an Eberron game as well. Airships are not corny (coming from FR they've been bouncing around my psyche for some time) and make for some fantastic roleplaying. Warforged are fun for players to run, but I would leave them in Eberron.

 

[lukelightning]

D&D has always had robots (golems), and as time went by the fantasy in general began to include more and more "sci-fi" and "mechanical" elements (robotic constructs, clockwork castles, alchemical cloning, etc.).

And flying ships have been in fantasy from the start. Besides, airships pretty much look like flying ships, not at all like airplanes.

 

[green slime]

Well duh, third level PCs attempting to assassinate the King of the Realm are probably going to have a hard time of it. But then, he's usually not the adventure at that level, is he?

Says who?

What I mean is stuff like the adventure paths from WOTC and Paizo not throwing CR 20 monsters at first level PCs, and spending a lot of painstaking time making challenges which challenge but don't overwhelm the PCs or constantly allow them walkover. You can't seriously be arguing that such metagaming doesn't exist, and isn't built into the game, can you? Am I imagining all that EL and CR stuff? Bueller?

If this problem exists in a published module, it is merely because they are required to hand-hold DM's everywhere. WotC included a difficult encounter in one the published adventures, a roper, IIRC, in the "Forge of Fury", and copped a lot of flack about it. So no wonder they stear clear of that now. What the game assumes in general, and what a published module assumes are two completely different things.

CR20 monsters exist in the campaign world, even when the adventurers are 1st level. The adventurers make what they will of it. A published module, can't spend the time or space to add in the extra detail you would hope to find in a campaign. If you only play published modules, then you will end up with a very strange environment indeed, and, in the end, find yourself standing in the "Epic" City of Union. Which by most accounts I have read, is not what people want.

Sounds like handwaving. 18th level PC rogue can sure rob a lot of 1st and 2nd level NPCs before anyone even notices something is very wrong, for instance. But then, they're not likely to be "the adventure" at that level, just like killing the King of the Realm is unlikely to be an intended course of action to succeed at for the 3rd level PCs described above.

But how many coppers can a rogue of that level accumulate from low level NPC's in a day? But I suppose they all walk around town with their level stated on their foreheads as well. It is up to the Player to find adventuresome, heroic things to do. If stealing buttons from the poverty stricken is what he wants, fine. But while he is doing that, the others will be enjoying a different adventure. Facing a variety of challenges, some beyond their capabilities, and others below. The King, can be third level aristocrat, 10 years old. Being a king does not require you be a high level individual, merely that you have the obediance of powerful supporters.

Killing the king can just as easily be an adventure for a low level party, as for a high level party. So could stopping a goblin/orc/lizardman invasion.

Must be a lot of poor good alignment merchants in your campaign, then.

Nope, not at all. There is such a thing as fair trade. You may have heard of it. To do otherwise is stealing, and not a good act. There is a very big difference between "making a profit" and "ripping someone off". At least, where I come from.

 

[DragonLancer]

While I don't agree with your conclusion DragonLancer, you do have the courtesy to say 'for me'. Others seem to be taking the stance that people who like Eberron (and there really are a lot), are plain wrong for enjoying this D&D setting.

Absolutely. Eberron is a cleverly designed world, which is a plus I must give it. I prefer the pseudo-medieval/Tolkein-esqe settings. Eberron, for me, took the magical nature of the game too far. Thats what spoils it IMO.

I don't think its wrong to enjoy a setting. I mean, as you guess from the name I am a fan of Dragonlance, and you don't get a more criticised setting than that.

Eberron didn't appeal, but I gave it a six month test run at least to see how it played. Before people criticise, they should actually try it.