Eberron-as corny as I think?

[rounser]

Says who?

Probably the King of the Realm's guards in most campaigns, but you're the DM and can have it otherwise.

But I suppose they all walk around town with their level stated on their foreheads as well.

Given the demographics of a city by the RAW, the chances of accidentally robbing archmage Khelben are exceedingly slim.

It is up to the Player to find adventuresome, heroic things to do. If stealing buttons from the poverty stricken is what he wants, fine. But while he is doing that, the others will be enjoying a different adventure.

I agree entirely. You're probably best taking this up with Jurgen, who seems to believe that players will exploit every loophole in a setting, rather than attempt to have fun playing the game by seeking challenges commensurate with their level.

Nope, not at all. There is such a thing as fair trade. You may have heard of it. To do otherwise is stealing, and not a good act. There is a very big difference between "making a profit" and "ripping someone off". At least, where I come from.

At what net profit does the evil kick in, I wonder?

 

[jdrakeh]

D&D has always had robots (golems), and as time went by the fantasy in general began to include more and more "sci-fi" and "mechanical" elements (robotic constructs, clockwork castles, alchemical cloning, etc.).

And flying ships have been in fantasy from the start. Besides, airships pretty much look like flying ships, not at all like airplanes.

White Plume Mountain and Expedtiion to the Barrier Peaks both arguably contain more actual "sci-fi" than the whole of Eberron. I mean, Eberron has psuedo-robots - both of the aforementioned modules had the real deal. Heck, even Temple of the Frog in Dave Arneson's original Blackmoor has honest to god energy rifles and electrnic security systems.

 

[Hussar]

I agree entirely. You're probably best taking this up with Jurgen, who seems to believe that players will exploit every loophole in a setting, rather than attempt to have fun playing the game by seeking challenges commensurate with their level.

Wow, Jurgen's copping a lot of flak today with people building scarecrows out of his words.

He didn't say that all players will take advantage of loopholes. He said that when loopholes exist, players CAN take advantage of them. Big difference.

I don't think its wrong to enjoy a setting. I mean, as you guess from the name I am a fan of Dragonlance, and you don't get a more criticised setting than that.

Eberron didn't appeal, but I gave it a six month test run at least to see how it played. Before people criticise, they should actually try it.

QFT

 

[green slime]

At what net profit does the evil kick in, I wonder?

Now that was an interesting question.

When does it become unreasonable?

When does eating become not merely a matter of satisfying hunger, but of gluttony?

When does longing turn into lust?

When does a desire for rest turn into sloth?

 

[rounser]

He said that when loopholes exist, players CAN take advantage of them. Big difference.

No. He didn't:

This is especially important when you deal with players, who are a crafty and devious lot and will quickly spot any inconsistencies and either (a) suspect some huge conspiracy where there is none or (b) come up with their own "get rich quick" scheme that exploits these inconsistencies.

The operative part being "and either", not "can".

White Plume Mountain and Expedtiion to the Barrier Peaks both arguably contain more actual "sci-fi" than the whole of Eberron. I mean, Eberron has psuedo-robots - both of the aforementioned modules had the real deal. Heck, even Temple of the Frog in Dave Arneson's original Blackmoor has honest to god energy rifles and electrnic security systems.

Thus resulting in less magical magic on Eberron (because when everyone's super, no-one will be). Both crashed spaceships on Greyhawk and Blackmoor involve alien technology introduced to an established setting as sideshow novelties, much like Murlynd's six-shooters. Eberron makes industrial magic an ingrained part of the setting, not a novelty sideshow.

 

[lukelightning]

Thus resulting in less magical magic on Eberron (because when everyone's super, no-one will be).

You can say this of many campaign worlds, especially Forgotten Realms, which is loaded with high-powered magic, gods walking the earth, mortals meeting with and turning into deities, etc.

If you are looking for a culprit for "what is de-magicifying magic" then I think the D&D system is to blame; Eberron merely made a point of taking the relatively commonplace nature of magic in the D&D system to it's logical conclusion.

 

[jokamachi]

Corny and unappealing. Sorry, Keith, but I'm just not into ninja detectives, robots, dinosaurs, or flying airships.

I play D&D.

 

[jdrakeh]

Both crashed spaceships on Greyhawk and Blackmoor involve alien technology introduced to an established setting as sideshow novelties, much like Murlynd's six-shooters.

Not quite right - Blackmoor wasn't an established setting at the time Temple of the Frog was published. It appeared in the first commercial printing of Blackmoor, thus, in this regard its inclusion of alien technology was no different than the inclusion of industrial magic in Eberron. That is, both of these things were part of their respective settings from day one, so far as the consumer was concerned.

That said, tech in Blackmoor is less prominant than industrialized magic in Eberron, but that wasn't what was being debated in this thread at all. It was initmated very early on that any inclusion of magic tech disqualified Eberron as "fantasy" - I merely wanted to point out that other, widely adored, settings included pure strain scientific tech and, yet, weren't disqualified as fantasy.

I think that's a pretty crazy double-standard.

 

[Hussar]

Curious.

Air Ships - Been in DnD since I was about twelve, so, that would be twenty ish years. Mystara, Forgotten Realms, even one of my favourite Dragon articles was about how to create an airship. Oh, but because it's being done now, it's wrong.

Magical technology - Dragonlance Adventures. I bought this book in the mid 80's and it included entire rulesets for developing technological gnomish wonders. Voyage of the Princess Ark - hailed by many as some of the best Dragon articles - had six shooter crossbows and cannons on their ship. I could likely come up with a dozen other examples, but, I'm sure they'll be brushed off as well.

I wonder if the problem isn't that Eberron is re-introducing these ideas, but rather, these concepts have become pretty popular and people are feeling left out because their tired old Tolkein hacks just aren't cutting the mustard anymore.

 

[Deadguy]

Corny and unappealing. Sorry, Keith, but I'm just not into ninja detectives, robots, dinosaurs, or flying airships.

I play D&D.

And so do I when I run Eberron!

Just because your personal definition of D&D fantasy doesn't encompass those elements, doesn't mean that that isn't D&D! Countless examples have been given of the pedigree of certain ideas within the D&D game, and of the scope of the fantasy genre.

Basically bud, don't you dare come here and try and tell me what my D&D ought to be!