D&D 5E Eberron popularity in 5E

[sunshadow21]

That elementals are bound is presented in the way that the buildings in Sharn being made of stone is presented, which is to say that it is presented as if it isn't of any consequence to anyone's campaign beyond just being there so that an answer of some kind is present should anyone happen to ask.

Probably because being a major element of the many of the Dragonmarked houses, it's wrapped up in the politics of those houses, which is not fully described and left to the DM to highlight what political concerns are highlighted.

Trying to have an independent group that isn't part of the Dragonmarked houses would be near impossible; even if such a group were able to find out enough details to put the cause together, their lack of clout as an outsider force would basically relegate the effort to the sidelines of society. They could have put a S.P.E.W. type organization in the setting, but without some kind of political clout to help it survive against the inevitable pushback from the Dragonmarked houses that rely on those elementals as a key part of their business strategy. S.P.E.W. survived mostly because it didn't directly threaten anyone and those targetted usually just laughed it off. Such an organization to protect elementals in Eberron would have a much, much, much stiffer path of resistance. Anybody doing so from within the Dragonmarked houses, such as the example above, is likely to have a difficult time making it a key priority without running into dozens of other issues that touch upon the subject; negotiating vs forced binding is probably the most that anyone is going to be able to do openly without causing all sorts of other disruptions.

In the end, there isn't the kind of group you seek because there's no base resource for a permanent group like it to build off of. Everything about it would have to be tied into the Dragonmarked houses somehow in order for it to have any meaning and thus end up getting pulled into the larger political scene that those houses have to deal with. Rather than expecting a completely independent group dedicated to that cause, it would be far easier to treat it as an ongoing political issue that is part and parcel of Eberron politics. A lot of people could be very concerned about it, but simply lack the resources or ability to make it a primary issue, which is where the PCs would be able to help, either by providing resources or by providing an outlet that could force it to be a more urgent matter.

So the storyline is very much there as the campaign is written, even if it isn't actively supported with some formal organization pushing it; it's part of the politics of the world that you as a DM or player can easily bring forward as being one of the larger concerns of that particular campaign. As a standalone concern, though, it's not going to be able to get enough traction to warrant specific mention in most of the official material; it's too tightly wrapped up with the Dragonmarked houses for that to truly work as an NPC organization separate from the houses and politics already presented in the material.

 

[Mouseferatu]

PS> I always assumed elementals don't care. If a fire gets to burn, he is fine. They just are.

This. In fact, not only don't they care, they can't. Elementals are mildly intelligent, but they're not sapient as we understand the term. It's not a living being made of fire; it's fire that happens to have some mild intelligence.

Or at least, so it was explained to me when I wrote my short story for the Tales of the Last War anthology, back in the mists of time. For those who aren't familiar with it, it involves an elemental orchestrating some events on an airship. Now, in the story, this particular elemental was made sentient/self-aware by the emanations of the Mournland, but in my original draft, I didn't include that detail. I was told to add it in and given (more or less) the above logic as to how the binding of elementals wasn't really slavery, and they didn't want a precedent of the elementals resenting (or even really being aware of) that binding under normal circumstances.

No reason you must play it that way, of course. And I have no idea if that particular notion is Keith Baker-approved. But it's what the editor of the anthology asked me to go by.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

A detail that is functionally no different from a not-detail likely should remain a not-detail on purpose to give the word count that would be spent detailing exactly what it is that not many people actually know to something which most people do know, or at least something that is framed to encourage DMs to focus a campaign or adventure upon it.

And the idea that most people don't know that elementals are actually sentient in the setting that involves an entire sub-heading under the heading "What Every Adventure Needs" dedicated to the topic of painting the world in shades of grey, rather than black and white, because a red dragon can be noble and heroic while a silver dragon is a despicable villain, doesn't sit right with me as a reason why there aren't people that do know that elementals aren't willingly hired to help out on airships, and have no confirmation that they are sentient but act on the suspicion alone to try and free these elementals because if they are sentient (and in a world were basically everything else is, why wouldn't they be) they are likely not happy.

Its internally consistent with the world: high-end esoteric knowledge is as rare as high-level people, and the people who deal the most in those matters have a corporate/government interest in keeping it quiet.

If a DM wants to make a thing about it, they can: Perhaps it is slavery and there are in fact people protesting it. Perhaps elementals welcome the chance to experience the material plane. Perhaps the binding involves a mutual contract of specific length and the first ones are due to start expiring right about . . . now.

Now, see, that is cool that at whatever point along the product run that book came out someone at least addressed that someone might not be entirely cool with what is being done to the elementals. It's just too bad there wasn't a memorable line in the original setting book (the only one I've actually owned and read through) to the effect of "...but not everyone that knows how these airships operate thinks using elementals in this way is acceptable." Didn't even have to be really detailed, just provide the idea that there is some conflict of opinion on the topic.

Now that you've told me about this, though, I plan on seeing if any of my Eberron-liking buddies have a copy of Magic of Eberron that I could borrow for a read.

Don't put yourself out too much just due to this: they're only given around a page of information. The only actual crunch they are involved in is the fact they are the suggested people to be able to have elemental grafts.

 

[Warbringer]

I'd buy any material in a heart beat.

I'm hoping 2016 is the year that we start seeing alternates to AL material (ie FR)

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

I think that we do need to pay attention to what people like Hobgoblin are saying. We not only have read and understood more about the setting because we are fans of Eberron, many of us are also fans of the setting because we have read and understood more about it.
Things like Keith Baker's posts on the WotC boards and his blog, and much of the additional material that has helped flesh out the setting and allow us to understand how it is internally consistent and nuanced have only increased our appreciation of it.

However, it is likely that much of the playerbase is more like Hobgoblin: they'll have a flick through the setting, formulate a pile of misapprehensions and opinions based on that cursory glance, and so put the setting away and go back to Forgotten Realms etc.
Eberron needs an intro or flagship material that portrays the setting in a way that doesn't cause that kind of confusion in new readers.

Hopefully one of the upcoming adventure paths will do that, but what would people recommend for now?
Eberron doesn't have the level of novel support that FR has, and the novels that I've read don't seem to have been as good. Existing adventure paths would require conversion. Most sourcebooks take the assumption of already knowing about the setting from the setting sourcebooks.

 

[Remathilis]

I think that we do need to pay attention to what people like Hobgoblin are saying. We not only have read and understood more about the setting because we are fans of Eberron, many of us are also fans of the setting because we have read and understood more about it.
Things like Keith Baker's posts on the WotC boards and his blog, and much of the additional material that has helped flesh out the setting and allow us to understand how it is internally consistent and nuanced have only increased our appreciation of it.

However, it is likely that much of the playerbase is more like Hobgoblin: they'll have a flick through the setting, formulate a pile of misapprehensions and opinions based on that cursory glance, and so put the setting away and go back to Forgotten Realms etc.
Eberron needs an intro or flagship material that portrays the setting in a way that doesn't cause that kind of confusion in new readers.

Hopefully one of the upcoming adventure paths will do that, but what would people recommend for now?
Eberron doesn't have the level of novel support that FR has, and the novels that I've read don't seem to have been as good. Existing adventure paths would require conversion. Most sourcebooks take the assumption of already knowing about the setting from the setting sourcebooks.

There is a fine difference between "I don't understand how the elements of this world works" and "I don't like how this element works, it should be changed to this." It's one thing to not get the intricate nature of how warforged are portrayed (sometimes accepted, sometimes hated, sometimes feared) and say "All warforged should be killed on sight by the people of Khorvaire". The former is a misunderstanding, the second reflects that fan's wishes and changes the fundamental nature of the world.

Imagine for a moment we were discussing the FR and I bust in and say "Forgotten Realms is too full of high-level NPCs who do all the glorious things. WotC needs to remove ALL high level NPCs from the setting forever if they want to make it sell!" (Actually, you don't have to imagine, I'm sure that thread is somewhere here). It's a misunderstanding formed from not understanding the role those high-level NPCs have in the Realms. Each setting has their detractors that find fault with it due to some misunderstanding and demand it changed to fit their preferences. While such criticisms are good because sometimes they find ways to clarify and grow a setting, they shouldn't be used to radically change the setting and alienate the fans. (When that happens, you get 4e Realms).

 

[GreenTengu]

Imagine for a moment we were discussing the FR and I bust in and say "Forgotten Realms is too full of high-level NPCs who do all the glorious things. WotC needs to remove ALL high level NPCs from the setting forever if they want to make it sell!" (Actually, you don't have to imagine, I'm sure that thread is somewhere here). It's a misunderstanding formed from not understanding the role those high-level NPCs have in the Realms. Each setting has their detractors that find fault with it due to some misunderstanding and demand it changed to fit their preferences. While such criticisms are good because sometimes they find ways to clarify and grow a setting, they shouldn't be used to radically change the setting and alienate the fans. (When that happens, you get 4e Realms).

Actually, you wouldn't be at all wrong to do so. Given the sort of big level 30 heroes that Forgotten Realms sports, ones that are basically on the level of gods, and just how commonly and how thoroughly everything in that world that could possibly be a real threat to the general peace has been dismantled, crushed and routed, it is a rather legitimate question "how can one even take an adventure set in this world seriously?"

You look at something like the Rise of Tiamat, it really is a question of how one even puts together an army of 1000 people with intent on marching on major cities without having Elminster pop in, point to the army and utterly wipe the entire thing from existence within 5 minutes and then popping back to whatever he was previously up to.

And so.... they do effectively remove all of those such characters from the world. None of the products up to now have remotely included the understanding that the world is just full of these epic level supermen who could just handle what your characters are doing without incurring any real threat to themselves. Now, granted, there is enough of an understanding there in things like Adventurer's League that your party is one just of thousands of adventuring parties out there "fixing" everything in the world to the point that if one really ponders that, it makes what your party is trying to do quite farcical since, really, given the sheer volume of adventurers in the world, just in your massive sprawling guild, why exactly are you trying to do everything with a small group of 5-6 instead of going back to the guildhouse and raising a proper army to handle this....

And where exactly are all these enemies you are fighting coming from? Who would even bother to try to do anything given the organizations out there dedicated to squashing any plot and seeing hundreds of such plots never getting off the ground? Even if your stat block says you are "evil", there still has to be a sense of futility and a desire for self-preservation that would cause you to more or less stay in line... and even if one person was insane enough that they didn't care.... how are they recruiting all these minions you are fighting?

Seriously, for Forgotten Realms to work you DO need to ignore quite a lot of the rational consequences for what actually exists in the setting.... and they do. They present the setting as if none of this is really part of it, particularly while engaging in a single game session or adventure line, it may be mentioned in passing or in supplementary materials, but it never makes it into actual gameplay.

 

[Cap'n Kobold]

There is a fine difference between "I don't understand how the elements of this world works" and "I don't like how this element works, it should be changed to this." It's one thing to not get the intricate nature of how warforged are portrayed (sometimes accepted, sometimes hated, sometimes feared) and say "All warforged should be killed on sight by the people of Khorvaire". The former is a misunderstanding, the second reflects that fan's wishes and changes the fundamental nature of the world.

Each setting has their detractors that find fault with it due to some misunderstanding and demand it changed to fit their preferences. While such criticisms are good because sometimes they find ways to clarify and grow a setting, they shouldn't be used to radically change the setting and alienate the fans. (When that happens, you get 4e Realms).

I'm not suggesting that Eberron be changed at all. I'm suggesting that we may need a better initial introduction to it. And asking for suggestions from existing material that a group of players could read that puts the setting across well.

Obviously no setting is going to work for all people. But when someone thinks that they don't like it because they think that it is something that it isn't, then that is a problem.
For example, Hobgoblin might actually like Eberron. But his first introduction to it gave a bad impression through a number of misconceptions and so he is unlikely to look deeper to the point that he does understand it.
If that experience is typical of a lot of players, it is something that needs to be addressed with a decent intro material. Likewise for other settings.

 

[Azurewraith]

I must admit bad intros can leave a sour and lasting taste when first introduced to Naruto and well after trying it again it turned out to be pretty.

 

[Remathilis]

Actually, you wouldn't be at all wrong to do so. Given the sort of big level 30 heroes that Forgotten Realms sports, ones that are basically on the level of gods, and just how commonly and how thoroughly everything in that world that could possibly be a real threat to the general peace has been dismantled, crushed and routed, it is a rather legitimate question "how can one even take an adventure set in this world seriously?"

Without rehashing the Problem with the Forgotten Realms debate, you've pretty much proved my point.

FR deals with the internal inconsistency of Uber NPC heroes and Villains by using them when convenient and ignoring them when it isn't. That's the nature of the setting. Every setting has those kind of internal WTFs: Eberron has a race of shapechangers allowed to walk freely. Ravenloft has borders with nothing but mist and a giant hole in the center of the continent. Dragonlance forces every mage to join a single order or die. Greyhawk has a living GOD as ruler of a nation and he hasn't managed to conquer all of the Flanaess yet. And on and on. Hell, even a 30 second march outside RPGs into other pop culture yields plenty of this (How did Jedi go from guardians of the Republic to a myth and ancient religion in 18 years? Why is it the public accepts the Avengers as heroes and the X-Men are feared and hated?)

Every setting is going to have its detractors and every setting has its problems. Take the good with the bad.