Critical Role Echo Knight is Wildemount's Most Popular Subclass

D&D Beyond shared some stats about the things people are using from Explorers Guide to Wildemount. These are stats from 28 million characters.

 

[jgsugden]

Everyone go back and look at the Mystic Theurge in 3E.

Theorycrafters saw it and SCREAMED about how BROKEN it was. There was no dissent. It was overwhelmingly powerful and broken beyond belief. Here on ENWORLD, on the WotC forums, everywhere - we stood united, with little dissent - KNOWING that it was broken.

And in play it proved to be underpowered. Way underpowered.

It took several years for people to come to that conclusion an for the boards in general to agree, but by the time 3E ended, it was common knowledge that it was weak.

If you have played 200 hours of Echo Knight, I consider you to be very knowledgeable and will value your educated opinion. The book has been out for about a month, so that would be essentially 40 hours of D&D a week. If you have significantly less experience with the class, I am going to say we still need to reserve our judgment.

And once again - Invoke Duplicity is a very different beast in play. There are superficial similarities, but if you think them worthy of comparison, you lack a deep understanding of one or both of them.

 

[CleverNickName]

@jgsugden yep, people on internet chat forums tend to conflate the importance of internet chat forums. (I should know; I'm a chief offender.) It's fun to discuss the pros and cons of the game, but I've learned to walk away when folks dig their heels in and start arguing.

The Echo Knight looks overpowered to me, but I doubt it'll top the Hexblade. I haven't played one yet but I will at the first opportunity...not because I want to check how balanced it is; it just looks like a lot of fun to drive.

 

[Mercador]

I guess they calculate the numbers out of characters with Wildemount content activated, so the 28M is misleading, since it's the total number of active character sheets (I am only repeating what I read here in earlier threads about that site).

28 millions character sheets, no matter the books, I would buy it but 28 millions that create Wildemount specific content, I think it is not possible. Not with a book with a 2 months old lifetime.

 

[Mistwell]

I have a group that just hit level 3 and one player is running a tiefling echo knight. I’m finding that the duplicate ability is REALLY powerful for a level 3 character. TBH it feels more like an ability you should get at level 5 or 6.

It’s also a little ill-defined. Can the duplicate speak? The character can attack from the duplicate’s position - can they take other actions? Open doors? Grapple? Pick something up?

Please let us know how your second session with the Echo Knight character goes. I am curious to hear play reports on it.

 

[Burnside]

Please let us know how your second session with the Echo Knight character goes. I am curious to hear play reports on it.

The player has spent two sessions keeping her own character behind 3/4 cover while using her dupe to make ranged attacks and draw enemy fire. The dupe gets taken out regularly but the player just re-summons her the following round with a bonus action and attacks again.

Combats have been against duegar who have some versatility but no AOE attacks. The one time in two sessions they managed to actually tag the real echo knight with 5 points of damage was when an invisible one snuck around the cover to get right next to her.

Player is very bright but this is her first ever D&D campaign so it's not like she is any kind of expert player. Most everybody else is running PHB-based characters and the power difference is absolutely noticeable. It's not game-breakingly bad but it's absolutely there.

 

[Mistwell]

I'm still telling you take a gander at those spells. Magnify Gravity for example, is just outright better than any other first-level AE damage spell. It's 60' range, 2d8 damage (CON save for half) in 10' radius centered on a point you choose (thus making it vastly easier to position than other low-level AE spells), aaaaand it halves the movement (halves, not -10' as you might expect, not even -15', halves) of creatures who fail the save, aaaaand all non-worn objects within the radius require a STR save (spell save DC) to pick up at all.
snare.

I agree with you, that spell is more powerful than it should be for a 1st level spell. That feels more similar to the second level spell Shatter. Same range (60') same radius (10'), same save for half (Con), slightly worse damage type (Thunder is resisted more than Force), and better damage ( 3d8 vs 2d8) but no half-speed rider (which feels about like a d8 of damage in value) and roughly the same impact on unattached objects. That feels close enough to be firmly a 2nd level spell...but it's a 1st level one.

However, it's worth pointing out that you picked THE ONE AND ONLY SPELL WHICH WAS RANKED BLUE on the guides I've seen. For example, Treantmonk ranked all the other Duramancy spells as green, red, purple, or orange from that book except Magnify Gravity. Meaning you highlighted likely the exception to the overall rule that the spells in this sourcebook are pretty well balanced to kinda below average or situational.

As for the Sub-Classes, Graviturgist is average or slightly below average for Wizard sub-classes. Probably above transmutter and necromancer, but bottom half for all wizard sub-classes.

Chronurgist, however, is overpowered in my opinion. BUT, only because of one ability they have. I think their sub-class related abilities are all fine in terms of balance (I would put them on the more powerful side but not more powerful than, for example, a divination wizard), except for that one ability. And that is their 10th level ability that has an issue: Arcane Abeyance. Arcane Abeyance let's you 1) get around concentration, and 2) it gets around the casting time, lowering the casting time to one action regardless of the casting time for the spell normally.

That one ability is broken, and I suspect as you suspect they didn't sufficiently playtest that ability. Playtesters should have been able to discover that a wizard with this ability could put up a Tiny Hut spell (for example) in a single action during combat - completely breaking the intent of that spell as an out-of-combat spell for long rests. I think I'd houserule this ability to require that any spell used with it can't have a casting time of more than 1 action, and if it's a concentration spell it counts as the wizard's concentration. That houserule would fix this sub-class to be within the bounds of other wizard sub-classes (though still on the upper half, probably top 3).

 

[Ruin Explorer]

In regards to the spells, quite simply Ruin, you have not made the case these spells are broken.
Some are overpowered, in my opinion. None at a glance, strike me as broken.

...
......

Quote me where I said they were broken.

Come on. I'll wait.

You won't be able to, because I said they were overpowered, not broken, explicitly! So way to agree with me in a fashion that looks like disagreement. I also have to ask: are you even fully reading my posts? I think that's a fair question given this is the second time you've responded to me in a way that suggests you are not!

As for the rest of it, you seem to largely agree with my position. The Chronurgist is about as good as the Diviner (a very good subclass, arguably the best Wizard subclass, power-wise), maybe slightly behind, but fairly close, based on 2/6/10 etc. abilities alone. Then on top of that they have access to these badly-designed spells. You say a Diviner could make better use of some of them - probably right - but they can't access them.

As for "don't use them!", don't worry, I won't! I never said I would, did I? What I said was "this stuff is overpowered" in response to a suggestion that it surely was not. You seem to broadly agree, or at least think that it's towards the very highest end of the power graph.

Not sure what you're going on about re: three-card monte, but if you think a character who summons an illusion of themselves 60' away in front of a bunch of intelligent enemies and expect them to be perplexed should be treated as a "master illusionist", well, yeah I'm not going to do that.

Also buddy you seem to be confusing Anakin Skywalker and Darth Maul. Anakin lost limbs, Maul lost his lower half.

The Echo Knight looks overpowered to me, but I doubt it'll top the Hexblade.

Hexblade/Pact of the Blade is pretty bad (even alone, Hexblade is bad - but Pact of the Blade alone is fine). I mean, I'm definitely not saying Echo Knight is the first or most overpowered thing in 5E. But it doesn't feel like it was the result of really hardcore playtesting or anything.

And once again - Invoke Duplicity is a very different beast in play. There are superficial similarities, but if you think them worthy of comparison, you lack a deep understanding of one or both of them.

Let's be clear that @Todd Roybark is the one who compared them originally, and you, @jgsugden and claimed they were "comparable", so that's quite a thing to say.

Overall, I think the Echo power of the Echo Knight edges out the Invoke Duplicity power of the Cleric of Trickery.

They're comparable in utility.

Anything else is responses to that.

 

[FlyingChihuahua]

You won't be able to, because I said they were overpowered, not broken, explicitly!

So you never said it, you just implied it, am I getting that right?

there is no difference between the two except when dealing with law, and we aren't dealing with law, we are dealing with an elf game.

 

[Mistwell]

To those saying everything in this book was playtested adequately, I challenge you to review the Chronurgist's 10th level ability, consider what you could do with it in terms of allowing you to have two concentration spells up at once AND get around longer casting times for spells not intended for combat to make them 1 action casting, and tell me again that ability had adequate playtesting. Because I am just not seeing it. That ability...I mean Ruin Explorer may not be willing to use the word "broken" but I am for that ability. It's broken guys. It's breaking basic assumptions of the game. I don't think it's written as they intended it to function.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

However, it's worth pointing out that you picked THE ONE AND ONLY SPELL WHICH WAS RANKED BLUE on the guides I've seen. For example, Treantmonk ranked all the other Duramancy spells as green, red, purple, or orange from that book except Magnify Gravity. Meaning you highlighted likely the exception to the overall rule that the spells in this sourcebook are pretty well balanced to kinda below average or situational.

I know you're the guide guy, but literally the first guide I found to Dunamancy spells had multiple ones rated in the top two categories, including four blue ones (though not Magnify Gravity, hilariously - maybe they just thing 1st level AE damage spells suck as a general thing).

DnD 5e Dunamancy Spells Breakdown

Character optimization guide for the Dunamancy spells presented in Explorer's Guide to Wildemount.

rpgbot.net

Obviously opinions can vary, but a lot of people seem to think that Dark Star and a couple of others are extremely good spells as well.

I focused on Magnify Gravity because it's one spell. I don't really want to be putting the details of every Dunamancy spell on the internet, it doesn't seem quite right.

So you never said it, you just implied it, am I getting that right?

No, I explicitly said otherwise and explained the difference in some detail. I think it's quite unfair that you'd make such a comment without reading the thread and seeing that I'd done that.