[EDITION WARZ] Selling Out D&D's Soul?

[PapersAndPaychecks]

The rust monster is a creature with no range attack at all, and it doesn't move unreasonably quickly. Therefore any party that understands basic tactics can beat it.

It should be CR0 imo.

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

The whole idea of "Gotcha" monsters is actually sorta weird, IMHO. What qualifies a monster as a "Gotcha" monster and not just a monster? Why don't we say "The ogre hit you with a club -- Gotcha!"?

The answer, in my mind, is that what we are referring to here as a "Gotcha" monster is any creature that does non-standard damage (i.e., it attacks something other than your hit points) and/or any creature against which standard tactics are ineffective (i.e., wading in with armour and your magic sword isn't a good idea).

[WELL-WRITTEN AND RIGHT-MINDED POST CLIPPED]

The WotC article chose the latter; I chose the former.

So that's the "monster design article" we're debating? I gotta start paying better attention, I had no idea.

Quick aside, and then we can get back to the Hatfields vs. the McCoys:

If this is the definition we're going for (monsters that make the party think and/or groan), then let me be the first to say: I Love Gotcha Monsters. And sometimes it can be as easy as throwing in something converted from an old edition that the group hasn't seen in a few years (if at all), or just tacking on a different description to a stock monster.

Case in point: The abishai. Straight outta MMII (1e), and re-introduced to 3e with Monsters of Faerun, if your players either don't know about it, or don't remember it, is awesome. It looks like a dragon, or some kind of funky draconic template-y creature. It's got nasty enchanting and illusionary spell-like abilities to mess with the party. It's got damage reduction. And, until it decides to summon some lemures, it's not going to occur to most people that it's a devil, or any kind of outsider at all. So, due to its having regeneration against everything short of holy water and blessed weapons, they can't kill the damn thing, and it may never occur to them to try those things. My guys figured it out, but they just plain didn't have any holy water on them, and didn't have silver shavings to make any - they just chopped it into pieces, buried it six feet down, and left. Had a hell of a time with that one.

I'm a 3e guy, but this is one thing that 1e, in particular, had in spades over 3e - funky, pain-in-the-ass, gotcha monsters. (Rot grubs, anyone?)

 

[Henry]

I'm a 3e guy, but this is one thing that 1e, in particular, had in spades over 3e - funky, pain-in-the-ass, gotcha monsters. (Rot grubs, anyone?)

EAR SEEKERS! Loved those things - they were the reason a rogue uses a hearing cone with wire mesh on the front.

 

[WayneLigon]

The whole idea of "Gotcha" monsters is actually sorta weird, IMHO. What qualifies a monster as a "Gotcha" monster and not just a monster? Why don't we say "The ogre hit you with a club -- Gotcha!"?

A Gotcha! monster is a monster that exists solely because adventurers exist and do certain things for the sole purpose either damaging adventurers or screwing said adventurers out of hard-won resources and equipment (or as a faux-balance tool for a campaign that has 'gotten out of hand'. Given out too many magic items? Trot out the Disenchanter!). It's a heavy-handed and usually nonsensical creature. In the same vein as this are creatures that exist solely to stop, block or nullify a specific character class ability.

All they usually serve to do is make would-be bold adventurers into whining, cringing accountants who want to map corridors with protractors and laser sights.

The old cursed magic items are another form of Gotcha monster. Nothing says 'fun adventuring' like finally winning through a tough adventure to find that the cool item you thought you were getting is acutally not only worthless but now you have to go on a special side adventure just so you can get rid of it.

Once in a great while, these can be used to good effect. Like, maybe once or twice a campaign lasting several years. Similarly, an adventure dealing with a cursed item can be a well-done thing frought with honest peril.

The way it almost always works, though, they are a smothering inconvenience, and a way for the DM to laugh at the 'stupid' players. "Man, you didn't think to stop and sniff the monster before you attacked it! It's not a hobgoblin but a rare Hemogoblin. It blows up for 50 points of damage. You're dead."

What I hated most was the faux-evolution rationale for such creatures. As if that made them OK.

* Adventurers wear a lot of heavy metal armor. Introduce the Rust Monster.

* Thieves listen at doors. How dare they! Introduce the Ear Seeker.

* Mages covet magical books and store their most important class ability on paper. Introduce the Bookworm that only eats magical books.

* Beholders are terrifying creatures of vast power and evil intent. Any encounter with one, especially at lower levels, is sure to be a super-tough fight and result in at least a couple of dead party members. OMG! There's one now! Quick, drink your potion of Heroism. Cast Haste or Stoneskin. Use charges from that wand! Expend a couple of your once-a-day ability uses! Charge! Boom, haha! It's a Gas Spore. Now you're all going to sprout mushrooms out your ears.

* The Nilbog. 'Nuff said. (Indeed, something like half the monsters from the original FF).

I'm sure people can think of others.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

A Gotcha! monster is a monster that exists solely because adventurers exist and do certain things for the sole purpose either damaging adventurers or screwing said adventurers out of hard-won resources and equipment (or as a faux-balance tool for a campaign that has 'gotten out of hand'. Given out too many magic items? Trot out the Disenchanter!). It's a heavy-handed and usually nonsensical creature. In the same vein as this are creatures that exist solely to stop, block or nullify a specific character class ability.

All they usually serve to do is make would-be bold adventurers into whining, cringing accountants who want to map corridors with protractors and laser sights.

*grins*

1e: Where Equipment Loss Is Sometimes Arbitrary™.

It's not a game for whiners.

 

[Henry]

What I hated most was the faux-evolution rationale for such creatures. As if that made them OK.

* Adventurers wear a lot of heavy metal armor. Introduce the Rust Monster.

* Thieves listen at doors. How dare they! Introduce the Ear Seeker.

* Mages covet magical books and store their most important class ability on paper. Introduce the Bookworm that only eats magical books.

Verisimilitude -- it happens in real life all the time. People put guns loaded with blanks to their heads and pull the trigger; people stand over natural geysers thinking it would be "fun"; People launch themselves from Trebuchets expecting a net 50 feet away to catch them.

Lack of caution is what all of the above have in common - even the beholder/gas spore thing.

What about targeting an Iron Golem with a fireball? Wouldn't that fall under the same category? Or a monk fighting somebody with a Flame Shield on?

 

[WizarDru]

1e: Where Equipment Loss Is Sometimes Arbitrary™.

It's not a game for whiners.

No, it's a game for people who like to use 10' poles. A lot.

Mind you, let's not limit our choice of gotcha monsters to just equipment loss. Let's not forget the 'a-chest?-you're-soaking-in-it' mimic, the 'how-did-evolution-produce-THIS?' trapper, the 'oh-they-must-have-evolved-from-this' lurkers above and the 'they-must-not-share-rooms-with-the-previous-monsters' piercer.

 

[WayneLigon]

What about targeting an Iron Golem with a fireball? Wouldn't that fall under the same category? Or a monk fighting somebody with a Flame Shield on?

Not really, because those are abilities that are not narrowly and specifically designed to screw over one particular class or 'niche'. Iron Golems don't exist solely because mages like to use Fireball a lot; they have plenty of other uses (though it would have been better if, instead of listing the two most common attack spells in the game, it was done as it currently us, with any magical fire or electrical attack causing those effects). Ear Seekers, on the other hand, exist solely and completely because thieves like to press their ears to dungeon doors while making use of their class ability.

 

[DestroyYouAlot]

* The Nilbog. 'Nuff said. (Indeed, something like half the monsters from the original FF).

Sirrah, I will fight to the death for the nilbog's right to seriously mess with adventuring parties! Choose your weapon!

(Seriously, I can see where you're coming from. But I do love FF monsters, the dumber the better - if for no other reason than you can throw it at the party once, have them all scratch their heads and go, "what the hell?", and then they never see it again.)

 

[Henry]

Not really, because those are abilities that are not narrowly and specifically designed to screw over one particular class or 'niche'. Iron Golems don't exist solely because mages like to use Fireball a lot; they have plenty of other uses (though it would have been better if, instead of listing the two most common attack spells in the game, it was done as it currently us, with any magical fire or electrical attack causing those effects). Ear Seekers, on the other hand, exist solely and completely because thieves like to press their ears to dungeon doors while making use of their class ability.

Mark me down as someone not seeing the difference; incautious behavior breeds bad results, no matter if from an ear seeker, or from a blast-happy wizard tossing flame on an Iron Golem. Same thing could be said about traps; they exist SOLELY to stop incautious intruders, as do ear seekers. In a world where Bioengineering existed before it was even a cool concept, things like ear seekers, otyughs, and rot grubs are going to be commonplace, as guards, traps, wards, and deterrents. I'm not saying a DM should use them every game, but one session with ear seekers is quite enough to have rogues thinking twice about laying bare ear to a door for the rest of a campaign. Similarly, one encounter with an Iron Golem will teach a player that fire (or magic, even!) is not the answer to everything.