Eliminating "Raise Dead" and "Resurrection"

[Steverooo]

Heroic Fantasy not filled with "dead" heroes coming back to life??? How many times did Hercules/Iolas/Xena/Gabriel die and come back? (Even the last time Xena died, Gabby was working on a way to return her!) How many times did Herc go down into the underworld to revisit someone?

In Moorcock's many novels, one of his characters (Corum?) spends most of the series trying to figure out a way to return his dead family and friends to life. Even Elric went after the Nanorian Stone, which could grant wishes and/or revive the dead.

And Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings? Dead on Zirak-Zigal, and "sent back, for a time". He didn't die again, either, but sailed to Aman...

So... so much for that idea!

As for 3(.5)e revivification...

First of all, Clerical spells are granted. If Thor doesn't want his Einheriar returned, he won't grant the cleric the spell. In other words, the PC asks for spells, and the GM grants them... or not!

Next, in-game, who "controls the souls"? This is determined by alignment (Which plane are they on?) and deity (Whose realm are they in, on that plane?) A cleric of Lolth shouldn't be able to bring back souls which passed to Celestia... I doubt she has many allies, there!

Then there are the conditions built into the spells, themselves. Bodies, money, materia, etc.

Nope, I think there are enough restrictions on "rezzes", as is. YMMV.

 

[SnowDog]

In my game, I've decided that Raise Dead is necessary for "first aid" type situations, especially in higher-level games.

Basically, in my cosmology (heavily influenced by Book of the Righteous), the departed souls head off to the realm of the god of justice to be judged and sent to the appropriate afterlife. Until that god holds court on a departed soul, it is eligible for Raise Dead. For convenience this is roughly 24 hours.

After that, Res. or True Res. can be done, but it requires the gods and the departed to be willing participants. Likewise, every single casting is a ritual of some kind.

To compensate for this, we use a Hero Point system where characters can be spared an otherwise fatal end by cashing in a hero point. Hero points are earned slowly (same pace as stat increases).

We started this system with the PCs at level 6. We're at level 9 now and it hasn't come up yet. I expect it might soon, though, given what the PCs are likely to face in the near future....

 

[Nightfall]

I think Steve makes a good point about such matters. Even though I'm really digging Akoss' idea for dealing with such matters.

 

[S'mon]

IMC Clerics of level 9+ with Wis 15+ are rare (perhaps 1 in a million people) and I use spontaneous casting for clerics, with limited 'spells known' lists, so many clerics won't have the raise spells on their spell lists even if theoretically capable of using them. Generally the PCs (levels 10-13) are the heroes and have to rely on their own resources, there aren't lots of higher-level NPCs hanging around to help them out. There are no known clerics able to raise dead within a couple hundred miles of the campaign area.

 

[S'mon]

Re running high-level or Epic games without resurrection, it's not 'wussification' to not use every critter in the MM & ELH. In a gritty no-ressing world, it makes sense to have insta-kill monsters be very rare. If they are encountered, their CR may need upgrading to reflect the changed circumstances. You don't need a winter wight in every (epic) dungeon.

 

[A'koss]

I think Steve makes a good point about such matters. Even though I'm really digging Akoss' idea for dealing with such matters.

It's really a stylistic decision in the end.

However, DM-fiat in matters of resurrection... I'm not a big fan of. This gets back to what Steve pointed out in that the DM can simply control who gets returned to life... "I'm not giving him up". That doesn't sit well with me though because you run the risk of appearing arbitrary and petty if you say "no.". That could very well alienate you from your players so I prefer to have hard rules, as it were, so that it's "out of my hands..."

A'koss.

 

[Nightfall]

Eh. I alienate my players all the time. Like from now on they won't be trusting little girls that scream and cry a lot while being attacked by what looks like a were-wolf. (Moon Daemons. You know I love em. )

 

[takyris]

A few random thoughts:

Make it -20 instead of -10, and say that anytime somebody goes between -10 and -20, they have to roll a Fort save or suffer some kind of grevious long-term harm that cure-spells won't fix (ie, loss of an eye, permanent -1 to Dex due to nerve damage, etc.)

Nerf the instakill monsters by having them do ability score damage -- the medusa's gaze does 2d6 permanent Dex damage, and when you reach 0, you're petrified. It can still be cured, but it's not as instant. A Death spell might do 2d6 Con damage, and anyone who hits 0 con is instantly put at -15 hit points -- they have to be tended to QUICKLY or they die.

And so on.

I argue against Hero/Fate Points. I used them in my last campaign. The players liked them at first, but in the big final battle, the last complaint was, "I'm not winning the fight. I'm only alive because of my Fate Points, and I'm using three of those per turn." It ended up feeling as though I made the fight too difficult and then added Fate points to compensate -- so it was my mechanic, not the players, who won the game. Other people could probably do it better than I did, but it's always going to be a concern.

 

[Trickstergod]

Heroic Fantasy not filled with "dead" heroes coming back to life??? How many times did Hercules/Iolas/Xena/Gabriel die and come back? (Even the last time Xena died, Gabby was working on a way to return her!) How many times did Herc go down into the underworld to revisit someone?

In Moorcock's many novels, one of his characters (Corum?) spends most of the series trying to figure out a way to return his dead family and friends to life. Even Elric went after the Nanorian Stone, which could grant wishes and/or revive the dead.

And Gandalf in The Lord of the Rings? Dead on Zirak-Zigal, and "sent back, for a time". He didn't die again, either, but sailed to Aman...

So... so much for that idea!

Actually, it still holds up. I personally wouldn't touch Xena with a 10' pole, nor allow it to sully my games. That's personal preference, though. But, in regards to, say, Gandalf, Gandalf wasn't quite ordinary to begin with, and death was a very, very permanent thing for Boromir. Nobody at any point thought Gandalf might come back, nor Boromir. That Gandalf returned came off more as an exception to the way the world worked, as opposed to any intrinsic ability for the dead to return to life like with D&D. As for Moorcock, again - it's something special, something restricted, something difficult to attain, and, most importantly, not something that anybody, in anyway, can honestly hope to make use of. The raising of the dead, again, is the exception, not the rule, and even then, is an uncertain thing.

As for 3(.5)e revivification...

First of all, Clerical spells are granted. If Thor doesn't want his Einheriar returned, he won't grant the cleric the spell. In other words, the PC asks for spells, and the GM grants them... or not!

Next, in-game, who "controls the souls"? This is determined by alignment (Which plane are they on?) and deity (Whose realm are they in, on that plane?) A cleric of Lolth shouldn't be able to bring back souls which passed to Celestia... I doubt she has many allies, there!

Then there are the conditions built into the spells, themselves. Bodies, money, materia, etc.

Nope, I think there are enough restrictions on "rezzes", as is. YMMV.

As a note, with the exception of the money, body, and materials needed for the spells, as per official D&D revivification, everything you listed off are house rules, not straight out D&D. A standard, 9th level cleric casting Raise Dead needn't worry about who controls the souls, or their god suddenly not granting the spell - only that the soul agree to return. There's nothing wrong with those restrictions, but they're not Core rules.

 

[Humanophile]

A couple of random house rule-y ideas on bringing back the dead.

First, I like the idea of rezzes costing XP, even if that cost ends up being equivalent to (and replacing) the diamonds. It encourages "outsourcing", which in low-fantasy games is a good excuse for mystic quests and macguffins, and in high fantasy games encourages the players to be good neighbors. It's not that bringing back the dead per se is a bad thing, it's just when it feels casual, something that sadly happens too often. Pomp, circumstance, and (especially) rarity are key here.

Second, it's a fortuitious coincidence that Raise Dead is fifth level... and so is Plane Shift. Most "bring back the dead" mythology features actually traveling to the lands of the dead to bring back the loved one, so those of you adventure seed people should get a kick out of this. Just require the soul of the desceased to be "on hand" for the raising. Actually having to petition at the gates of heaven/fight through the hordes of hell, all while the clock is ticking adds some nice urgency, and makes sure ressurrections don't happen casually. (Even 200 years could run out fast trying to get "raise my brother who was run over by a wagon" on a god's datebook.)