Entangle needs nerfing...

[Infiniti2000]

Because the examples are being used to compare with *entangle*, and how broken it is/isn't in *combat*.

Not necessarily. e.g. The possibility of a druid luring opponents off the path and into the woods has not been addressed. You're making the assumption that that couldn't occur -- which would change the percentages. So, the entangle could be set up before the encounter, perhaps at the bottom of a pit trap filled with 10ft high vegetation, etc. There are lots of scenarios to skew this in the other direction as well. If you only want to argue this from a limited perspective, I'm not sure I can help.

Try this
combat wand only good 3/day
combat want only good between noon and 1pm

Sure, if you get attacked a lot right at noon, the second one would be great....

A problem with wands is that they have charges. I'd recommend considering a different magic item. A 'combat' wand good 3/day for 17 days really isn't that good anyway. Letting you pump off all the charges in 1/408th the time (noon-1 on one day) is not a good comparison either.

If you adventure outdoors, with lots of vegetation, entangle is great. (Of course, in almost any outdoor adventure, the casters have a huge advantage...)

Depends on the party. Do you think an archer does not have an advantage outdoors? How about a mounted knight?

The Druid happens to have two pretty good 1st level spells -- Produce Flame and Entangle. If we are talking very low level characters, these are not better than the comparable options for the Cleric and Wizard, e.g. Sleep.

The big difference between sleep and entangle is the casting time.

I'm not saying that druid spells should be more powerful. I'm saying that you'll really only see it in conjunction with druids.

I have to ask then, what's the purpose of even mentioning that it's a druid spell? If it's only a druid spell, then doesn't that just increase the chances of the encounters taking place around plants? And by saying that the DM has complete control, are you advising DMs out there to railroad their druids and rangers into non-plant locations? Do you adopt the philosophy of, "Okay, I know you are druids and rangers, but I'm setting the entire campaign in underground and city locations where there is no plant or animal life. Yeah, every city normally also has parks and plant life, but not mine. You will find nothing. The world is barren."

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

I have to ask then, what's the purpose of even mentioning that it's a druid spell?

From my POV the point is that you should actually judge the typical list of prepped spells for a Druid of a certain level, and compare the usefulness of that list with other spellcasters. Obsessing over a single spell completely out of context is the wrong approach.

The best 1st level spell in the core rules is Blessed Weapon. It is way overpowered by normal standards. "That is so unfair! The paladin is always fighting evil creatures! " Duh. You must keep spells in context.

Let's peek at another powerful 1st level spell that is a favorite in the smackdown threads: True Strike. It is an extremely powerful spell in precisely the right circumstances. Why is it balanced? Because it generally requires a precious action during combat to use at all. And this is why fretting over how great Entangle is for a 1st level spell is a bit pointless. After you hit ~6th level every spell you cast during combat needs to be pretty good to justify spending an action for it.

The fact that a certain 1st level spell is approximately as good as a 2nd level spell under special circumstances, circumstances I do not actually see much in real play, is not in itself anything to get worried over. Where's the beef?

 

[Endur]

The spell doesn't work in the dungeon, where 90% of the campaign takes place.

Seems like a reasonable spell. Let the Druid have their fun.

 

[Ogrork the Mighty]

The spell doesn't work in the dungeon, where 90% of the campaign takes place.

What campaign you runnin' ?...

 

[Endur]

Return to Temple of Elemental Evil

Over 90% of the campaign is in a dungeon environment where Entangle is useless..


Return to TOEE Thread part 1
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=120587

Return to TOEE Thread part 2
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=138020

 

[beaver1024]

Who is to say that dungeon environment can't have plants? Broken down castle don't have overgrowth? Cavern environment don't have overhanging roots?

It's a druid spell, it's meant to be overpowered. Remember that WoTC loves druids and clerics above all else and game balance be damned.

 

[RigaMortus]

Who is to say that dungeon environment can't have plants?

Ahhh... the DM?

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

For all the bellyaching the examples of Entangle causing bizarre combat results are effectively non-existent. It always boils down to "Seems awfully powerful for a 1st level spell." The fact that a specialized 1st level spell is comparable to a 2nd level spell (e.g. Web) in just the right circumstances proves nothing at all.

The Druid has a number of overspecialized spells. How often are you fighting untrained Animals? Terrorized by Plants? Creatures made of ferrous metal? Fire Elementals? The Druid has the spells for dealing with those problems but is behind the curve for more normal problems.

If your PC is a Half Iron Golem Treant from the Elemental Plane of Fire, I would strongly suggest you not mess with Druids in the forest. The rest of you should be able to figure out how to tough it out.

(I do believe I recall the details of Forceuser's party near wipeout from a previous thread, and it is not a good example for several reasons.)

 

[Jhulae]

That's pretty much exactly it, RC.

 

[Plane Sailing]

I agree with the Entangle is badly designed crowd. Every time I've seen it used it has totally dominated the combat, whether it was used by 3rd/4th level PCs against rampaging gnolls, or a mad druid against four 8th level PCs.

The DC20 ability check is crazy. Make the DC equal to the spell DC would perhaps help some, or if they had explicitly given example DCs for different kinds of terrain.

Arguments about it not being available to cast in certain circumstances are not valid ones for saying that the spell is fine; you have to measure up its usefulness in the situations where it can be cast to see how good it is. None of the arguments proposed here for why it is a fair and reasonable spell seem at all convincing to me.

Web suffers from the same problems in terms of its ability to cripple *even those who make their save* - which is the key problem area IMO.