[Epic D&D] Peace No More (Full-Again)

[Arknath]

Arknath - i don't recall Tome & Blood being a Core book. I'm reffering to going by the DMG, page 246

No need to be snide, man.

Adding New Abilities

A creator can add new magical abilities to a magic item with no restrictions...
If the item is one that takes up a specific space on a character, any additional power added to that item dobules the cost. For example, if a character adds the power to confer invisibility to her +2 ring of protection, the cost of adding this ability is the same as for creating a ring of invisibility multiplied by 2.

Everybody seems to overlook this section, but it clearly says that items with multiple abilities cost the original ability + twice that of each additional ability.

ie.. The total cost of the item in the above example would be that of a +2 Ring of Protection plus twice the cost of a Ring of Invisibility.

Obviously you're the DM and I'm not going to argue with you, if that's the way you want it, but I will express my opinion of your statement in an attempt to defend my reasoning.

I STRONGLY disagree with you on the clarity or the interpretation of the passage you quote. First of all, it applies to items that have already been created, not items being created from scratch.

Second, it says that "an item with additional powers doubles the cost" not "an item with additional powers doubles the cost of the item in addition to its base price". The ring of invisibility example is a clear demonstration of that. It uses a ring of protection +2 and ring of invisibility combination stating that the total cost of the ring is twice as much as a ring of invisibility because the invisibility power of the combined item is the more expensive part.

This would mean that the ring of invisibility and protection +2 would cost 40,000gp instead of 36,000gp, as it would be under your interpretation. Here, your interpretation is better for the player, but when you do the same thing dealing with hundreds of thousands of gold peices it goes against the player character.

Finally, if you want to get REALLY technical, the sidebar on page 243 of the DMG states (second paragraph, line 9) "For items that do take up a limited space (such as a ring or a necklace), each additional power not only has no discount but instead has a 10% increase in price. A belt of Strength +4 and Dexterity +4 is more valuable than a belt of Strength worn with gauntlets of Dexterity since it only takes up one space on a character's body." Therefore, the cost of such an item should be 33,600gp instead of 32,000gp.

This is my attempt at an "appeal" to the DM and maybe some of the other players can correct me/back me up if my interpretation is incorrect/correct. I am not trying to be a rules lawyer, but I am using the same methods of pleading my case as you did in stating yours.

*insert disclaimer about how I'm not questioning the DM's authority just trying to clarify a rule, blah blah blah...*

Edit: Upon further discussion with some friends/fellow players it seems that I have been doing ALL of my item creations wrong since playing the game...give me a few to go over all of my items and see if they are still correct...sorry for the confusion...

 

[Guilt Puppy]

GPuppy -
Using ward against 2 different types means using the seed twice, thus the DC for Warding vs both Undead and Evil Outsiders would be 28 for the Ward seed.

I'm extrapolating this from the HELLBALL, which does 4 different energy types of damage, and the Energy seed in it has a DC of 76, which is 4 X 19 (The Energy seed DC=19). Therefore using a Seed to do it's thing multiple times has the DC of using the Seed multiple times.

As for Sacrificing Turning attempts.. I'll give it an ad-hoc -5 DC mod for each Turning attempt you use up to cast it.

Also, the HEAL seed cannot destroy undead, it reduces them to 1d4 HP (Just like a HEal spell). and it doesn't affect outsiders (Evil or not) at all. To actually destroy them you'ld have to use A Slay seed (Which wouldn't work on the Undead), or a Destroy seed.

Also to get it to affect an area you'ld have to Change Target to Area(+10), and then pick an area (I'ld suggest 20' Radius around you for DC+2). THEN go with some Incrase Areas to get it fairly good (I'ld go for +400% to make it a 100' radius at another + 16 DC.

I don't see how you're going to get this spell working without either taking mondo Backlash (Which would be deadly if it has a duration), Burning XP (unadvisable if you don't have a Rod), and/or finding some way to up your Spellcraft check by 20 to 30 more points.

Yeah, I figured it might just be two wards, but wasn't sure.

Another question: Normally the ward seed allows you to select creature type at time of casting (as Epic Repulsion)... Any mitigation for limiting it to a specific type? (Otherwise, I'm better off just having a spell that wards against two creature types, but that's just so flavorless...)

Also, I'm thinking I should just make it two separate spells, as it's really hard to get the effects to make sense together (seeing as there's an instantaneous effect, and a long duration effect)...

As for the Heal, I'm thinking of making it a wide bolt effect, sort of a "cut a swath" style spell... I'll have to see how much it'll hurt to get that cast-able. Destroying lesser undead is more to keep it from becoming less useful against weaker undead than a turning attempt (as the idea is more to deal with hordes of weaker undead than a couple of appropriate-CR ones)... Destroy might be more versatile as a base seed in any case, but the idea of channeling positive energy just seems a better fit (not to mention I get to line up a congregation to relieve them of their afflictions, in case of plague )

How would you price "undead who would be destroyed by a turning attempt would be destroyed by this spell"? That takes into account turn resistance and anything similar... +5 DC? (In that it emulates some abilities of a turning attempt, but not all of them... so I could burn off one turning attempt to get its effects along with it, essentially.)

Oh, also:

"Also, the HEAL seed cannot destroy undead, it reduces them to 1d4 HP (Just like a HEal spell). and it doesn't affect outsiders (Evil or not) at all."

Actually, it would restore full hit points to evil outsiders, remove all diseases, et cetera I think you can see the can of worms that opens up...

 

[Jemal]

Ark - I wasn't being Snide, I was stating a fact. That's called being truthful. Tome+Blood is NOT a core book, so it doesn't over-rule core books.

As to the Sidebar on page 243, I've allways run into problems with it b/c it's not supported by anything else in any of the books, and is actually contradictory to most of them.

I'll give you an argument that you CAN'T disprove... Examples from the ELH.

Ring of universal Elemental Resistance, Major costs: 216,000
Now, a normal ring of Elemental Resistance, Major costs: 24,000

Using my way of figureing things out, we'ld need to do the ring's ability 5 times.
first costs: 24,000. each one after that costs double, or 48,000.. SO...
24,000+48,000+48,000+48,000+48,000=216,000.
According to YOUR way (Double the price of the most expensive only) cost of this rign should be:
24,000 X2 = 48,000 for a ring of Universal elemental resistance, Major.
That's one example from a core-book that supports me.

Second example:
Bracers of Relentless Might cost: 4,385,000 GP
My way :
+12 STR: 1,440,000
+12 Con: 2,880,000 (twice normal)
Size category 2 larger than normal : 64,000 (32,000 X2)
total according to my way: 4,385,000.
According to you way:
1,440,000 X 2 = 2,880,000 GP for Bracers of Relentless Might.

I'ld love to use your way if I were a player, but as A DM I have to worry about game balance... Making an item yourself doing it that way would allow you to get items that are out of reach of most characters your level.

(Yes i know the following is a rediculous example, that's WHY i'm showing it...)
Amulet of godliness:
+10 to all stats, +10 resistance to all saves.
Cost: twice what the most expensive thing costs, so 1,000,000 X 2= 2,000,000.

The way I propose works for the majority of cases, and only in odd cases (IE Staff of Power, Orb of Storms) does the sidebar on page 243 of the DMG make sense.

If you still think you've got a good reason your way is right, I'm all ears, I'm just trying to explain my reasoning, b/c I hate the "I'm the DM so I'm right" saying. I try to use logic + Math to back myself up.. Unless something just doesn't make sense or would be bad for the campaign, in which case I use a house rule.

 

[Arknath]

Ark - I wasn't being Snide, I was stating a fact. That's called being truthful. Tome+Blood is NOT a core book, so it doesn't over-rule core books.

Not to nitpick (ok...i'm nitpicking) but "I don't recall..." is a patronizing and superior tone to add to a statement...but I digress...

According to YOUR way (Double the price of the most expensive only) cost of this rign should be:
24,000 X2 = 48,000 for a ring of Universal elemental resistance, Major.

Not that it matters anymore, but using my way would have to have added the 48,000 for each ability...

Either way, I edited my post at the end to basically say that I was wrong and I saw what you were talking about...so, I have to go and figure up all my items again to make sure I did them right. I see what you're saying and I concede...*gives DM a big noogie* ya big lug...

Ok...anyways, back to having fun and getting ready for the WONDERFUL game I know you have planned for us!! I'll make changes according to the new calculations for my items...and check your email...I sent you the stats for my staff...be gentle...is my first time actually creating one...

 

[Jemal]

Sorry if I sounded patronizing, I didn't mean to.

OH, and GPuppy....

Another question: Normally the ward seed allows you to select creature type at time of casting (as Epic Repulsion)... Any mitigation for limiting it to a specific type? (Otherwise, I'm better off just having a spell that wards against two creature types, but that's just so flavorless...)

Also, I'm thinking I should just make it two separate spells, as it's really hard to get the effects to make sense together (seeing as there's an instantaneous effect, and a long duration effect)...

As for the Heal, I'm thinking of making it a wide bolt effect, sort of a "cut a swath" style spell... I'll have to see how much it'll hurt to get that cast-able. Destroying lesser undead is more to keep it from becoming less useful against weaker undead than a turning attempt (as the idea is more to deal with hordes of weaker undead than a couple of appropriate-CR ones)... Destroy might be more versatile as a base seed in any case, but the idea of channeling positive energy just seems a better fit (not to mention I get to line up a congregation to relieve them of their afflictions, in case of plague )

How would you price "undead who would be destroyed by a turning attempt would be destroyed by this spell"? That takes into account turn resistance and anything similar... +5 DC? (In that it emulates some abilities of a turning attempt, but not all of them... so I could burn off one turning attempt to get its effects along with it, essentially.)

Damn you for making me think.
Anyways, for the 2 wards affecting ONLY undead and Evil Outsiders... How's this:
"Warded type pre-set (Ad-hoc - 4/ward seed)"

As to destroying lesser undead..
"Undead whose HD are 1/2 or less of the casters level are destroyed instead of being reduced to 1d4 hp. (Ad-hoc + 10)"
*Note: This effectively cancels out the 2 turning attempts.

Getting it to affect Evil Outsiders... I'm thinking of throwing in the Banish seed instead of the Destroy or Slay seed.. And then limiting Banish to Evil Outsiders Only... at say an Ad-hoc -10 DC. Then just increase the Spellcraft DC by that same 10 and instead of ALL extraplanar creatures of 14 HD or less being banished, it would banish all EVIL Outsiders of 34 HD or less. (for the same spellcraft DC of the seed of 27). OR you can make it more HD via the +1 dc for +2 HD.

 

[Guilt Puppy]

Jemal: That should be enough to work with... Just two things to note:

"Undead whose HD are 1/2 or less of the casters level are destroyed instead of being reduced to 1d4 hp. (Ad-hoc + 10)"

That circumvents turn resistance. Do you want it to?

And will evil outsiders get two separate saves, or one save? Makes a big difference (if it's one save, they either get banished and healed, if it's two saves, they might get banished, or they might just get healed... you can tell which one I prefer, but I'll need to look through the ELH some to figure out which would be the "default")

 

[Jemal]

How's this :
Heal only affects people caster wants it to(IE all allies and undead in area): Ad-hoc + 9 DC

then the evil outsiders only get the 1 save to avoid being banished, and bad-guys have no chance of being 'accidentally' healed.

 

[Victim]

I'm tweaking equipment and epic spells. But I'm going assimar 1 Sorc 19, Paladin 12.

Epic spells so far include:

Essence Armor: +30 armor spell that lasts for 5 days

Heaven's Fury: Long range, big area, weak attack spell. An army killer.

Celestial Grace: long lasting stat buff

and some weapon/natural attack boosting spell.

 

[Jemal]

Just don't forget you have to pay XP for each Epic spell you make. Plus gold.

 

[Victim]

I know, I purchased a couple of extra Rods of Excellent Magic (or something like that) to trade off gold for development cost on some of the more expensive spells.

Is it okay if I alter some of the spells to have permanent durations and super long times? It seems kind of cheesy building them that way.