Epic Experiences and Thoughts

[WizarDru]

I'm finding that instead of ratcheting up the lethality rate, I'm making the consequences for failure much more severe. In an upcoming game the PCs may or may not get killed by a bunch of devils holding a temple of Yondalla hostage, but those poor halflings in there are largely going to fold like tenpins if the PCs aren't precise and effective.

I can't emphasize this point enough. Unless the party lives in a total vacuum, they will have friends, family, relationships, associations, organizations and just plain innocent bystanders to worry about. As one of my players has commented, essentially, the problem isn't being a big gun, it's being pointed at the right location. Focusing on one problem means, by necessity, not focusing on another.

As for the issue of having epic monsters and bad guys, my main solution to introducing them has been that they generally hold each other in check, until the PCs became strong enough to upset the balance of power. Fraz Urb Luu's background manuevering was virtually unnoticable by the general populace, until the PCs stumbled across too many of his plans. The Scarlet Brotherhood and the Four Winds didn't concern themselves with the affairs of the PCs specifically, until the PCs became powerbrokers. The Shadowtaker didn't send assassins after them until it became clear that sooner or later, they'd figure out who he was and come gunning for him.

Plus, as has been mentioned elsewhere, Planar adventures become huge when you're Epic. Travelling to a pocket demi-plane to lay the smack down on someone, popping off to Sigil and then stopping by the City of Brass...all in a day's work. Have fun with it. The more offbeat or fantastic, the better, IMHO.

 

[Bryan898]

I've had a few games that went into epic levels. I found that I enjoyed starting at lower levels and working your way into epic levels much more. When I started the PCs at 21st level they often bit the big one rather quickly. Also, unless you have very well developed PC's or very good roleplayers, it will be hard to affect them by threatening their relations.

Though I love epic feel, I have a few beefs with the ELH. First off, I don't like the level range of the book. I would have preferred if it were written for another 10 to 20 levels. There are some really cool feats, classes, magic items, and monsters that I will never use (or the PCs for that matter) because I wouldn't run a game that long. I also hated the magic system, and I simply went with increasing their possible spell levels instead. That way they can use metamagic for 12th level spells, or create spells of suitable power for the given level. One thing I did find that balanced spellcasters was still allowing 3.0 haste effects, or creating a higher level spell that emulated the spell. The additional spell provides them with a much needed boost at higher levels. Another thing I did was allow them to create many metamagic rods that worked from levels 1-9.

I'm going to go off on a small rant here, so excuse me if it's off topic, but I don't see the point to epic levels. It's all about scale, and all this book does is increase the scale. Why not have most commoners and humanoids in the world be lower levels? You could create the same epic feel if the truly "epic" levels are the 15-20 range. Demigods are usually about 25th level, a lot of the monsters in the ELH are scaled down to 20-25 CR (which works well considering the lack of high level monsters), and the planes are a powerful place full of nasty creatures such as Balor's and Pit Fiends. The Tarrasque and Demon Lords are still all powerful creatures that are nigh unstoppable. You could change the feats to having high requirements so they're attainable only by the high levels, which would fill the void for powerful feats at higher levels. Artifacts would remain just that, a +10 weapon would still be powerful, and you could still save the world every day. I simply don't see the need for the large math which tends to slow down combat... At level 40 you may do 300 damage a round, but the monster has 3,000 hp. It's the exact same as doing 30 damage a round against a 300 hp creature at 10th level. The only true need I see for epic level is when your characters hit that 20th level, but the stories not finished. Even in such a case I still wouldn't go beyond 30th level. Heck, by 28th level my characters were in the middle of a four way battle between Mephistopheles, Asmodeus, a Solar, and the Demogorgon (BoVD). They still held their own, and though the battle ended in a TPK as they tried to escape, they still took down the main objective and saved the day. I personally wouldn't want a character that could down a demigod in one round, "but that's just my opinion, I could be wrong"

 

[Kerrick]

SO far, we've only had one game that went epic, but it was a long-standing campaign that started from first level and ran all the way to 29-30th level. It's on standby right now; I got deployed, our DM had some health problems, and half the group decided to go on hiatus. We played about a year into epic, off and on, so we got a pretty good feel for how it worked.

We did come up against some things we didn't like (some problems, some things that we just felt needed changing) - for one, we changed the BAB/save progression back to normal. It saves a LOT of time when making characters, and we found that it doesn't affect the PCs that much, unless you remain single-class. We tend to multiclass and make use of PrCs (both our own and published ones), so we can cover the shortfalls more easily. Attacks, of course, are capped at 4/round.

Epic spellcasting - yeah, that one got ditched. I sat down and rewrote it as a level-based system. Development costs 10K gp per level, 1 month/level above 10th, and 1/25 the gp cost in XP (so a 15th-level spell is only 150,000 gp, 5 months, and 6,000 XP). And I've been busy converting a buttload of spells my DM had from his old group when they played in the bad old days of 1E/2E - they had spells of over 10th level.

We have yet to use ANY of the monsters from the ELH. My DM contends that they're all boring and banal (I believe his actual words were "They suck."). We use our own monsters, along with some epic NPCs.

In my world, the king's army is powerful enough to repel attacks from the undead legions of the lich king. But only the PCs are daring enough to lead a commando raid into the lich king's citadel to destroy his phylactery.

Our world is like that too - high power, high magic from the start. It almost has to be, to make epic work properly. Also, when you hit epic, you shouldn't be confined to the Prime - there's a whole multiverse of planes out there, with all kinds of threats - use it! The PCs should have easy access to planes-hopping magics and items - let them confront demon lords, angels, and gods, as befits their level.

 

[eris404]

I'm glad you started this thread, WizarDru, because I'm really curious about running/playing in an epic game, which has not happened yet in our group. Eventually, I'd like to DM another campaign and perhaps take the characters from 1st to 25th level or so (though probably not higher than 30th level). Does anyone have advice specifically for planning an "epic" campaign from 1st level?

 

[Argent Silvermage]

Like they have been saying all along Epic works best if the characters are designed to go the distance. Aethramyr is a hugely different character having never multi-classed than Bolo who has 3 classes.

Basicly put from a players point of view starting at 1st level and trying to "go epic" is a strain on the character concept. Unless you choose from the start that you will have "x" ranks in specific abilities by the time you hit 20th level then you will not seem all that epic. I think I'll work up some comparisons....

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

I'm with Dragonblade and Nifft on this one.

My worlds assume that the 'standard' soldier is around level 8-12.


In my Ivalice campaign, typical conscript troops of the Lion War were Commoner 4/Fighter 2 and knights were mostly a 10th to 15th-level mix of OA Samurai, AU Warmain, PHB Fighter or Paladin and MiniHB Marshal.

But during King Delita's reconstruction, the army was remade into a standing, professional force, trained with pikes and muskets: typical soldiers were trained to the level of Fighter 8 and led by knights, rather than formed into their own (cannon fodder) regiments. This puts Ivalice slightly ahead of, say, its chief rival Romanda (typical soldier: a rifle-armed Fighter 6).

"Boss" enemies, like Romandan special agents and Shrine Knights, are all Epic, and the PCs will be there themselves.


Dwarves of the Dwarven Age setting fielded the finest armies of their time, a mix of modern-US and ancient Roman typified by Fighter 4/Warmain 10 regulars with Marshal 16 officers. Their main rivals? Giant rebels with class levels, epic elven and draconian spellcasters, and the dying human and orcish kingdoms with their small but elite cadres of near-Epic knights.

Whatever side the PCs wound up on, they could expect to face elite troops with CRs in the 30 range, along with ancient menaces like elder dragons and new ones like runetech 'bots.

 

[Dragonblade]

A lot of my views on epic level gaming were influenced by my friend, Rich. He used to post on here under the name of SHARK but hasn't posted in over a year now.

Anyway, he had two major reasons for running a campaign world that was scaled higher from the start and that often reached into epic levels.

1) He felt that having a typical NPC guard or soldier as level 1 or level 2 Warriors was not realistic or consistent with the knowledge and and abilities such characters should feasibly have. For example, your typical Roman legionnaire for instance is likely to have several ranks in Survival, Knowledge: Roman history, Knowledge: Legion Tactics, Spot, Jump, Climb, etc. They are also likely to have acquired feats through their training such as Alertness, Toughness, Weapon Focus: Gladius, Phalanx Fighting, and so on.

Taking all of that into consideration, you average legionnaire probably works out to be around an 8th level Fighter or so. Its just not feasible that such training and skill can be represented in game by some 1st level Warrior. This argument holds true for any fantasy archetype.

For example, would a skilled smith really just be a 1st level Expert? No way. According to my 3.0 PHB, the DC to make a long sword is 15. Is an experienced smith working in the king's armory going to ever fail this check? Probably almost never (i.e. only on a roll of 1). This means they need at least 14 ranks in the skill assuming a stat of 12 (the high end of average). To have 14 ranks in Craft: Long Sword requires them to be around level 11.

Once he realized that this was the case, rescaling the world came naturally.

The notion that most NPCs should all be level 1 Commoners, Experts, or Warriors just doesn't make sense.

2) The second factor is fun. Now fun, of course, is a very subjective thing. Some people love low-level gritty games where a +1 sword is a treasured artifact. Me too! I'm playing in a low-magic Iron Kingdoms campaign now and I love it!

But I also love high level and high magic worlds as well. Not because I'm a munchkin who loves playing godlike PCs, but because I like options. And to me, high level and high magic are all about giving players options. Sometimes fantastic options, like traveling the planes, or having a dragon mount.

And yes, high level DnD is also partially about the kewl stuff. I mean what's the point of there being vorpal weapons or +8 celestial uber armor if you never get to use it. At this point the RPG elite cry out: "Ha! You are simply a munchkin after all!"

Well, no. Not really. You see, munchkinism is all about getting stuff for the sake of stuff. Because a munchkin's goal is to figure out how to turn on god mode and win the game. In my world, getting cool gear doesn't help you "win" the game. In my world, +8 celestial uber armor doesn't make you invincible. Trying to take on a squad of the lich king's winter wights by yourself is still suicide. But having armor that allows you to fly, or heal yourself, or turn undead, etc. provides you with options and an element of fantasy that just wouldn't exist in a low-magic game world. That may not work for you, but it works for me.

Now some critics might cry: "If such powerful magic is commonplace, it loses its wonder!" There is perhaps a bit of truth that. But, in the long run, I don't think so. I feel that making even low-powered magical items rare only causes players to associate the wonder of magic with items, rather than in the setting or magic itself. This is a bit hard to explain and again this is a matter of personal preference. But I think that magical items should be treated more as props in a grand opera. The mystery and wonder should come from the story and setting, not from the props.

Again, many disagree. It really is a matter of personal preference. And ultimately, having fun is all that really matters.

 

[drnuncheon]

For example, would a skilled smith really just be a 1st level Expert? No way. According to my 3.0 PHB, the DC to make a long sword is 15. Is an experienced smith working in the king's armory going to ever fail this check? Probably almost never (i.e. only on a roll of 1). This means they need at least 14 ranks in the skill assuming a stat of 12 (the high end of average). To have 14 ranks in Craft: Long Sword requires them to be around level 11.

I think you guys forgot about 'take 10' - with that you can easily get your 15 DC at even first level, and possibly even DC 20 (4 ranks, +3 skill focus, +1 stat, +2 masterwork tools).

It really all depends on where you set your benchmarks. For instance, the feats you ascribe to the legions - does every legionaire need to have Alertness and Toughness, or should it be reserved for those soldiers who are more alert or tougher than average? (And if everyone's got the feats, how do you represent those that are naturally better at those things?) Does the average legionaire know more about Roman history than any other Roman citizen? (If everyone's got the knowledge skill, just decrease the DC and allow a default Intelligence roll.)

If I were going to set up a Roman-style legion, I'd make them fighters rather than warriors - that difference alone would make them more effective than most of the people they'd be facing. If they were second level fighters, they're going to have more than twice the hit points and two more feats over first level warrior foes - certainly enough to make them a feared fighting force!

Bumping up the average level is certainly a valid approach, but one can make reasonable professional soldiers and experts without doing that.

J

 

[Bryan898]

Hijacking the Thread

I'm going to hijack the thread for a quick question that's sort of off topic. So if in your campaign you start the world ready for epic levels complete with high level commoners and such, where do your characters start? Truthfully if a common soldier is an 8th level character, the common orc raider should also be 8th level. What does a 1st level character fight/ do? How do you start from first level and run epic by creating the world to accomadate epic levels like that without taking from the reality of the game at lower levels?

I can see your points about people being leveled, but the common soldier being low level makes since to me. Eighth level seems way out of line... the common soldier could slay 3 ogres and not break a sweat? or a troll? They have some feats to work with but more importantly they are trained in Every Martial - Simple Weapon, and all Armors and Shield, which is no small feat. As for them being stronger than your average joe or more alert, their hit points and ranks are more than enough to show that aspect of a soldier compared to a commoner. For crafts and professions, as noted before you forget about the taking 10 ability, which leads huge amounts to the realism of the game. I once played in a game like this where every soldier was like 10th level, and every orc about 15th level... I couldn't help but ask why the orcs haven't taken over the world and if we were supposed to level off squirrels? It doesn't seem real to assume that every soldier or orc raider, or whatever has survived about a hundred fights (average 13 per level as the system was created).

 

[the Jester]

Ahhh, I've been wondering how long it would be until someone brought up SHARK-style campaigning!

My biggest problem with making all the npcs 8th level and whatnot is that you remove the formidableness of monsters.