Epic Level Stats

[Toj]

Basically, I would like to keep players ability scores semi-realistic. Meaning that I don't want epic level characters with super strength and super dexterity etc. The limit will probably be 22 for humans.

Does anyone have any ideas on what I can offer instead of an ability bonus? What would be a good compensation?

 

[threefallentrees]

Maybe feats.

You could even have feats that *emulate* high ability scores, without actually creating them.

Concult thte d20 supers games for those ideas; I've seen them being discusses in the Systems Games forum and they seem interesting.

 

[mikebr99]

You are not fine with them leveling-up their stats, but how are you going to stop them from using magic to get them over your 22 limit?

Non-epic books and stat boosting items are fairly cheap, considering how much gold epic characters should have.

 

[Toj]

Using magic is fine to get stats above 22, that still fits with my scope of semi-realism.

I just don't want a normal person with lots of skill to naturally have "super stats."

Is a feat equal to an ability score bonus? I just need to make sure I don't mess up the balance issue if I take away to ability bonus.

 

[mikebr99]

Using magic is fine to get stats above 22, that still fits with my scope of semi-realism.

I just don't want a normal person with lots of skill to naturally have "super stats."

Is a feat equal to an ability score bonus? I just need to make sure I don't mess up the balance issue if I take away to ability bonus.

ok... first of all... Epic characters aren't NORMAL, and shouldn't be limited to any view of what a person off the street can do. An Epic Character is a superhero, and should be able to have the STR of 10 men.

I would think that a feat is the same value as a stat increase, but there are epic feats that also boost stats, so you'll have to rule on those also.

 

[Toj]

mikebr99 wrote:
ok... first of all... Epic characters aren't NORMAL, and shouldn't be limited to any view of what a person off the street can do. An Epic Character is a superhero, and should be able to have the STR of 10 men.

I agree they aren't normal; they have skill that other people consider superhuman.

I just don't have the same view as you that epic level characters should be able to have superhuman stats. Their bodies will be in maximum condition for their race, but I don't want it above and beyond that. This is just a personal preference of our group.

It's just like Batman, who has maximum stats for a human. He has reached human potential in physical abilities. This is how we view it.

So feats would be equal to stats bonuses.... is there anything other suggestions?

 

[kreynolds]

I agree they aren't normal; they have skill that other people consider superhuman.

I just don't have the same view as you that epic level characters should be able to have superhuman stats. Their bodies will be in maximum condition for their race, but I don't want it above and beyond that. This is just a personal preference of our group.

While I understand where both of you are coming from, I gotta back up mikebr99 on this one. I think the point he was trying to make is that you would like to limit your player's "abnormal" epic characters to "normal" stats within an "abnormal" world that is filled with "abnormal" creatures, and all of it resides within a "fantasy", or "abnormal", game.

Quite simply, realism destroys d20.

It's just like Batman, who has maximum stats for a human. He has reached human potential in physical abilities. This is how we view it.

But it's not like Batman at all, not even by a stretch of the imagination. The big difference between D&D and Batman is that humans in D&D have no limits at all. If you want limits, perhaps D&D isn't the right system for you.

Like others suggested, you could make feats that give the benefits of high stats without you needing to have the high stat, but what would be the point of that? If you can get the benefits of a 30 strength, why not have a 30 strength?

I'm not chastising or anything. I'm just moving the discussion along.

By the way, this really needs to be in House Rules.

 

[Magic Rub]

You do realise (and this is if my memory serves me correctly) that there are feats that have stat. prerequisites that are above 22. Why would you make it harder for your PC's to get epic feats? Also you're hindering their epic skill checks. Not all PC's can just pull uber magical stat increasing items from their buttocks. And as a DM if you 'hand them out' (stat increasing items that is) like junkmail, then what's the point of your stat. limit? IMO you're hurting epic lvl play by capping stat lvl bonuses at 22 (before magic).

 

[Toj]

I could have swore that I hit the house rules button... when I saw it went in D&D Rules I thought "doh!" You can move it there if you like.

kreynolds wrote:
While I understand where both of you are coming from, I gotta back up mikebr99 on this one. I think the point he was trying to make is that you would like to limit your player's "abnormal" epic characters to "normal" stats within an "abnormal" world that is filled with "abnormal" creatures, and all of it resides within a "fantasy", or "abnormal", game.

But to me limiting their ability score maximum makes it that more challenging... it makes them truly 'epic' or 'heroic'.

Quite simply, realism destroys d20.

Well it can, without the proper modifications.

Like others suggested, you could make feats that give the benefits of high stats without you needing to have the high stat, but what would be the point of that? If you can get the benefits of a 30 strength, why not have a 30 strength?

Well, in this instance the benefits I am thinking would involve better hit roll, better damage, but not give you the ability to actually lift a this or that amount or carry such and such amount.

Also, in a fantasy setting, we never hand out ability increase magical items like candy. It's generally a random thing. Concerning feats involving stats over 22, well I would need to evaluate them.

 

[1337 h4xor]

by limiting their ability scores it does not make them extra heroic it makes them extra dead. At epic levels especially balace is extremely difficult, and if the players cant take full advantage of the rules the way they're supposed to be then there are going to be problems.