Ethics of Killing POWs

[Jhulae]

I agree that the alignment system is messed up and complicated. It is one of the hardest things to explain to a newbie.

Now I don't view chaotic as being an anarchist. I view it as a person who puts personal choice above following the law. That does not mean they break the law for the sake of breaking the law. I always view it as they focus on the rights of the individual where as lawful focuses more on the rights of society as a whole. Personally I find neutral good to be the easiest to play because it does not have the extremes of LG or CG.

I never understood how a chaotic society really survives. Without mutual laws and rules and order I wonder how they get anything done. People in this kind of society would have to be highly unselfish and willing to come together when needed.

Okay, Selfish is another good replacement, too. However, again, it's not the way 'Chaotic' (IE acting in a random fashion - see the great OotS comic) is normally 'portrayed'. The fact that 'chaotic' is presented in multiple fashions - one as 'myself before others' and the second as 'randomness' doesn't help matters.

Most of the 'jerk' type CN players usually go with the 'act randomly' subset, which causes a lot of issues. The other jerk type take the 'self over others' to the extreme, which honestly, at that point should be CE.

Regardless, the alignment system needs a major overhaul. In actuality, Palladium's *one* great contribution to RPGs was their alignment system. I wish I could get our group to house rule them in instead of the current D&D one.

 

[Elf Witch]

Okay, Selfish is another good replacement, too. However, again, it's not the way 'Chaotic' (IE acting in a random fashion - see the great OotS comic) is normally 'portrayed'. The fact that 'chaotic' is presented in multiple fashions - one as 'myself before others' and the second as 'randomness' doesn't help matters.

Most of the 'jerk' type CN players usually go with the 'act randomly' subset, which causes a lot of issues. The other jerk type take the 'self over others' to the extreme, which honestly, at that point should be CE.

Regardless, the alignment system needs a major overhaul. In actuality, Palladium's *one* great contribution to RPGs was their alignment system. I wish I could get our group to house rule them in instead of the current D&D one.

I have never seen Palladiums system exactly which book is it in?

 

[Nifft]

a chaotic [society] will still have some form of laws.

IMHO people are gonna be people, and the lawful / chaotic (and even good / evil, to an extent) will be embodied in how they express their commonalities.

For example, a CN society might phrase its laws as protected freedoms. E.g.: "You can do whatever you wish, so long as you do not deprive another individual of his liberty, property or health."

A CN society might praise an artist for her originality rather than for perfecting a particular school or style, even if she did both in the same piece.

Cheers, -- N

 

[moritheil]

Hrm, would you mind defining civilization? The original context this came up with was the use of morals "outside civilization" when dealing with a presumedly tribal culture. By civilization, do you many any grouping of humanoids, or the level where they build big statues and carve laws in stone?

And it's interesting that you call me "certain".

Well, you stated it without including any provisions of doubt.

As to civilization, I agree definitions might vary, but can we agree that living beings without language, without abstract thought, and without laws are uncivilized, and that abstract thought, language, and laws are at least closely associated with civilization, if not causal?

If so, I would point out that the idea of ethics itself is pretty abstract. I don't mean the simple level of reasoning that dictates something like, "If you do X, you will be punished, so don't do it." That does not involve ethics; it is a practical decision.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Hrm, would you mind defining civilization?

Call me old fashioned but until you build cities you're not civilized. If you don't have writing and do have a city you're teetering on the brink. Only once you have a city, some form of recorded language and a measure of specialization of labor can it be called civilization. Of course the only real benefit you get for being civilized is that sometimes you trade in between wars and the nobles are likely to be ransomed back instead of killed outright.

EDIT: But to go back to the OPs point. The game isn't called Peacekeeping & Politics, there are no standards like the Geneva Convention. If they aren't ransomable they aren't going to be taken prisoner, though they might be made slaves (this is where many ancient cultures got the majority of their slaves via capture during war). And if they're too much inconvenience they'll be killed anyway as more trouble than they're worth.

 

[S'mon]

Call me old fashioned but until you build cities you're not civilized.

Yes, sometimes "civilisation" is used as synonymous with "culture", but to be meaningful it requires a certain level of development, and its literal meaning of a culture with cities is the best one I think. Cities bring with them several other effects. Of course there are marginal cases - were ancient Gaulish settlements like Alesia "cities", such that there was a Gaulish civilisation? In any case nomadic hunter-gatherer cultures are clearly not civilisations.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

As to civilization, I agree definitions might vary, but can we agree that living beings without language, without abstract thought, and without laws are uncivilized, and that abstract thought, language, and laws are at least closely associated with civilization, if not causal?

Unfortunately, no. We can't agree on the first part, because I wouldn't consider any species without abstract thought (as an adult) to be within humanity/personhood/sentience/scifi fantasy term of choice, so uncivilized is redundant of their state. It's like saying "cows are uncivilized." Technically true, but useless. We can't agree on the second part, because it leaves no useful definition of an uncivilized human. Conan, for example, was civilized from the get go by that usage. The fricking ravagers of Firefly, who were flesh wearing, cannibal lunatics were civilized flesh wearing cannibal lunatics.

No, the opposite of civilized is barbaric, not non-sentient.

 

[Kahuna Burger]

IMHO people are gonna be people, and the lawful / chaotic (and even good / evil, to an extent) will be embodied in how they express their commonalities.

For example, a CN society might phrase its laws as protected freedoms. E.g.: "You can do whatever you wish, so long as you do not deprive another individual of his liberty, property or health."

Another difference might be between things that are illegal because they might hurt someone and things that make hurting someone a crime vs an accident. For instance, a chaotic society could still have stop signs, traffic lights and speed guidelines. Not speed limits, because disregarding any of them would not be a crime in and of itself. But if there was an accident and one person involved was running a stop sign or light or going massively over the speed guideline for the road, that person would be at fault and possibly guilty of a crime. The furthest extreme of a chaotic society would have no traffic laws or guidelines and you would simply take you life in you hands by choice every time you existed in the same area as a moving vehicle, but that would be the extreme that I think couldn't really function at all.

 

[Jhulae]

I have never seen Palladiums system exactly which book is it in?

Any of the books with character creation: Off hand, I can think of Palladium RPG, the main Rifts book.

I'm not sure of what others. There used to be a website that had them but I can't find it anymore.

 

[Elf Witch]

Any of the books with character creation: Off hand, I can think of Palladium RPG, the main Rifts book.

I'm not sure of what others. There used to be a website that had them but I can't find it anymore.

Thanks I think I might have a few old Palladium books on my gaming shelf. I am off to look.