Evasion & Uncanny DOdge as feats

[Thurbane]

I was toying with the idea of allowing the class features Uncanny Dodge and Evasion as feats. I'd be surprised if this hasn't been discussed beofre, but here goes:

Evasion
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Tumble 3 ranks

Improved Evasion
Prerequisites: Evasion, Run, Tumble 6 ranks

Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Dodge, Alertness, Balance 3 ranks

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Initiative, Balance 6 ranks

Edit 1.0

 

[Jack Simth]

Mild issue - now the Human Fighter can have Evasion before the rogue.

 

[Aus_Snow]

How about some ranks in Tumble for Evasion? That would favour the more agile classes by default

Dodge and Alertness make sense for Uncanny Dodge, and Improved Initiative is not out of the question somewhere on that (short) feat chain. Still. . . I'm not quite sure what would work best here.

The basic idea though is a good one, I think. I've come across it before, and contemplated making some rules for it, but it's good to see a thread dedicated to this topic (again?).

 

[Vrecknidj]

First, I think that unless we're ungluing the system as a whole (i.e. including feats that allow spellcasting, and pretty much all class abilities), I think we're better off not turning some things into feats. That said, I'd make some changes. (The following assumes that these remain class abilities, but can now be picked up by members of other classes.)

Evasion
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Tumble 6 ranks, Dex 13

Improved Evasion
Prerequisites: Evasion, Tumble 9 ranks, Dex 15

Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Dodge, Alertness, Tumble 6 ranks, Dex 13

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Initiative, Tumble 9 ranks, Dex 15

I'm not convinced that Balance is the way to go (I'd even consider Escape Artist except for its tendency to be about tight spots over "escaping" per se). I even think that Combat Reflexes and Lightning Reflexes might serve as good prerequisites for these.

But, no matter how you slice it, I'd prefer to keep them as class abilities.

Dave

 

[whydirt]

I'd actually tie the Uncanny Dodge feats to Wisdom instead of Dexterity, since it's the stat tied to awareness. Also, it'd give a nice feat chain for the stat for Fighters who want a high Wisdom.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The ranks numbers are not high enough unless you want rogues and monks to get improved evasion long before they could gain it as a class ability.

Evasion: Dodge, Mobility, Tumble 5 ranks, Dex 13+

Improved Evasion: Dodge, Mobility, Evasion, Tumble 13 ranks, Dex 15+

Uncanny Dodge: Alertness, Spot 7 ranks, Wis 13+

Improved Uncanny Dodge: Alertness, Improved Initiative, Spot 11 ranks, Wis 15+

Spot skill is more about awareness and ties with what the uncanny dodge ability/feats do.
Skill Focus (Spot) could also work instead of Improved Initiative.
But I also agree that I think these should remain class abilities. Adding all the prerequisites stops someone from just having the class ability to upgrade early. It will not allow a 10th level rogue to get improved evasion as well as another ability off their list instead of having to wait til 13th level to pick up the second one because of the high rank requirements. They can now get it as early as 12th level if they pick something else at 10th.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Thurbane]

First, I think that unless we're ungluing the system as a whole (i.e. including feats that allow spellcasting, and pretty much all class abilities), I think we're better off not turning some things into feats. That said, I'd make some changes. (The following assumes that these remain class abilities, but can now be picked up by members of other classes.)

Evasion
Prerequisites: Dodge, Mobility, Tumble 6 ranks, Dex 13

Improved Evasion
Prerequisites: Evasion, Tumble 9 ranks, Dex 15

Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Dodge, Alertness, Tumble 6 ranks, Dex 13

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Improved Initiative, Tumble 9 ranks, Dex 15

I'm not convinced that Balance is the way to go (I'd even consider Escape Artist except for its tendency to be about tight spots over "escaping" per se). I even think that Combat Reflexes and Lightning Reflexes might serve as good prerequisites for these.

But, no matter how you slice it, I'd prefer to keep them as class abilities.

Dave

Strangely enough, that was very similar to the requisites I initially had, before the comments about a fighter being able to have Evasion at first level.

I thought Balance for Uncanny Dodge, to represent not being caught flat footed and twisting out of the way of a sneak attack...

 

[Hawken]

Instead of making Dodge and Mobility requirements for Evasion, make the feat required Skill Focus (Tumble), while keeping the ranks required and min. Dex requirement. This prevents Fighters from using their bonus feats to get the feat prereqs out of the way and forces them to use one of their level (or human) based feats to get it, and makes Skill Focus a more important feat.

Dodge and Mobility have to do with avoiding attacks while tumbling is implied in the use of the Evasion ability and using this guideline shows that.

Improved Evasion is fine as it is for requiring Evasion, Dex and Tumble ranks.

For Uncanny Dodge, I would go along a similar tack and suggest using Skill Focus (Spot) instead of Dodge, for the reasons listed above. Instead of ranks in Tumble, I would suggest the requirement be ranks in Spot. Uncanny Dodge does not increase the subject's ability to dodge attacks, it is there because of the subject's awareness of incoming attacks. As such, I would suggest the min ability score be Wisdom instead of Dexterity. I can see the logic behind having Alertness as a requirement also, but one feat requirement is plenty for this ability considering it would also have min ranks in a skill and a min ability score.

So, they would look like:

Evasion
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Tumble), Tumble 6 ranks, Dexterity 13+.

Improved Evasion
Prerequisites: Evasion, Tumble 12 ranks, Dexterity 15+.

Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Spot), Spot 6 ranks, Wisdom 13+.

Improved Uncanny Dodge
Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Spot 9 ranks, Wisdom 15+.

Alternatively, you could use Skill Focus (Listen) and ranks in the Listen skill as requirements for UD and IUD.

And I would exclude any class that has these as class abilities from having to meet these requirements.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The ranks for Tumble set at 5 stop a Fighter from getting the Evaions feat until 7th level (Cross-class skill). Adding Skill Focus (Tumble) does nothing, but raising the ranks required to 6 means the Ftr has to wait til 9th level.

Putting Improved Evasion at 12 ranks of Tumble means any class without it as a class skill can not get the feat until epic levels (21st level).

Uncanny Dodge: Again, Skill Focus (Spot) does nothing, but Spot ranks at 6 means a Ftr has to wait until 9th level to get this feat. Druids, Rangers, Rogues, and Monks could pick it up at 3rd level (Class skill). Add that you need Spot and Listen at 7 ranks and Alertness (gets both skills in one feat) and Ftrs need to wait til 11th level to get this feat. Drds, Rgrs, and Mnks can get it at 4th level (when Rogues get it as an ability).

Again, you are not listing all the prerequisites and that could get dirty for those classes that do get the abilities. What other feats say that several Core Classes cannot take them? If you make it so that there is no advantage to take them (you can't get it earlier) then no one of those classes will take them, and problem is solved without adding unneeded special rules.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Hawken]

The ranks for Tumble set at 5 stop a Fighter from getting the Evaions feat until 7th level (Cross-class skill). Adding Skill Focus (Tumble) does nothing, but raising the ranks required to 6 means the Ftr has to wait til 9th level.

This isn't designed to 'stop' anyone. Tumble is the one skill most closely associated with the Evasion ability based on its description. If you're making something previously inaccessable suddenly accessable to others, this is a sensible requirement. Making the feat required Skill Focus makes that feat a little more important now and also is a good choice not just for flavor but to keep the requirement a requirement by not letting classes that get bonus combat feats practically ignore prerequisites. Levels have to be gained to get Evasion as it is, that means training, practice, etc, and if the classes that get it have to gain levels, making classes that don't normally get it spend one of their hard earned feats, well, that's a fair price to pay while not letting those classes wtih the bonus feats suffer because they didn't take a combat based feat.

Putting Improved Evasion at 12 ranks of Tumble means any class without it as a class skill can not get the feat until epic levels (21st level).

That is simply just not true. There are plenty of feats/house rules that would allow any other class to take Tumble as a class skill, and thus meet the requirement way before Epic levels.

Uncanny Dodge: Again, Skill Focus (Spot) does nothing, but Spot ranks at 6 means a Ftr has to wait until 9th level to get this feat. Druids, Rangers, Rogues, and Monks could pick it up at 3rd level (Class skill). Add that you need Spot and Listen at 7 ranks and Alertness (gets both skills in one feat) and Ftrs need to wait til 11th level to get this feat. Drds, Rgrs, and Mnks can get it at 4th level (when Rogues get it as an ability).

How does it do nothing? Uncanny Dodge is an ability that is earned based on the character's senses. Using Spot or Listen are the only two skills based on senses. And I mentioned nothing about using both as requirements. Alternatively means as an alternate; use Spot or Listen, not both. Yes, those classes could pick it up at 3rd, don't forget Barbarian by the way, but that means they would have to spend one of their (1st, 3rd, and/or Human) 2 or 3 only feats to take the required Skill Focus feat and another feat for the UD feat. This leaves them with only 1 other feat. That's a pretty decent, if not steep, price to pay if someone wants to get that ability that early on.

Again, you are not listing all the prerequisites and that could get dirty for those classes that do get the abilities. What other feats say that several Core Classes cannot take them? If you make it so that there is no advantage to take them (you can't get it earlier) then no one of those classes will take them, and problem is solved without adding unneeded special rules.

I thought I did list all the prerequisites I would use or suggest be used. No other feats say classes cannot take them but these are not feats. These are class abilities that no one else can take right now being made into feats so other classes can take them--that is the advantage in taking them. And its not about being able to get them before the classes that get them, get them. It's about being able to get them at all since, right now, only those classes that get them, get them.

Spending a feat and putting ranks into a skill that should be developed anyway is hardly a terrible price over having to multiclass 2-4 levels to get Evasion and UD.