D&D 5E "Evil" options limited to the DMG?

My point is simple: WotC have apparently* narrowed down something in D&D with 5E in a way that does not support options, that does not support variety, that does not support existing D&D settings, and that, most hilariously of all DOES NOT SUPPORT THE MAIN/DEFAULT 5E SETTING (unless the Death gods of the FR got re-jiggered again!), and yet you are seemingly claiming this is some sort of victory for choice, variety and flavour.

There is support as in "here's something ready for you to use", and there is support in the general sense of allowing you to play the game you want and add material later. The second is certainly not narrowed down. The first of course it is, but I'm trying to tell you that the PHB etc. are going to be full of usable stuff, and yet of course it's limited. It cannot be otherwise. So if you want variety in a certain area, you have to accept less in another. You can't say 5e "doesn't support variety" or "doesn't support options" (what the hell does it mean anyway?). It just doesn't have all the things you wanted out of the box. I personally wished for many more subclasses and feats to increase PC variety, but didn't get them, so I can say 5e at the moment doesn't support enough variety in feats, but as a whole there's still 320 pages of variety. And still a much more flexible system overall compared to previous editions.

As for settings, once again the PHB supports as much as it can with its 320 pages. Can you play FR with the PHB? Yes you can (even with Basic you can), nothing there prevents you to do so. Does it give you enough crunch to create mechanically different Clerics for 20 FR deities? Sadly no, but if it did, then it had to give somebody else something less.

In the meantime, while you're waiting for a FR sourcebook, try to play with what you have or make your own stuff like in the good old days.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

The issue here is that by making these assumptions, they narrow what D&D is about, rather than broadening it.

Ok I see what you mean, that if they just avoided any good/evil characterization, then it would be broader because every gaming group could decide their own. E.g. group #1 could play a setting where good clerics cast radiant spells and evil clerics cast death spells, while group #2 could have both cast both and let motivations differentiate them.

Only IMXP it's not that simple. People play the game with different assumptions on what's not written. Having the book decide for you is both a restriction and a guideline or track to follow. Experienced gamers will probably focus on the restriction and dislike, beginners and casual gamers mostly do the opposite (and a lot of people see D&D also as a meta-setting so they like having some stuff defined). But experienced gamers should also have much less problems customizing the stuff (you probably don't even need to create material in this case) to lift the restrictions, compared to inexperienced players having to add definitions and characterizations.
 

There is support as in "here's something ready for you to use", and there is support in the general sense of allowing you to play the game you want and add material later. The second is certainly not narrowed down. The first of course it is, but I'm trying to tell you that the PHB etc. are going to be full of usable stuff, and yet of course it's limited. It cannot be otherwise. So if you want variety in a certain area, you have to accept less in another. You can't say 5e "doesn't support variety" or "doesn't support options" (what the hell does it mean anyway?). It just doesn't have all the things you wanted out of the box. I personally wished for many more subclasses and feats to increase PC variety, but didn't get them, so I can say 5e at the moment doesn't support enough variety in feats, but as a whole there's still 320 pages of variety. And still a much more flexible system overall compared to previous editions.

As for settings, once again the PHB supports as much as it can with its 320 pages. Can you play FR with the PHB? Yes you can (even with Basic you can), nothing there prevents you to do so. Does it give you enough crunch to create mechanically different Clerics for 20 FR deities? Sadly no, but if it did, then it had to give somebody else something less.

In the meantime, while you're waiting for a FR sourcebook, try to play with what you have or make your own stuff like in the good old days.

This is all well and good, but none of it really speaks to the topic of this thread. Who is denying that 5E has lots of options? Quote please! :) Maybe it's me and I forgot or can't find it (sadly I have done this before! I "have form"!) :blush:

But I don't think so. 5E has lots of options, I agree, but it seems like, if the RUMOURS we've heard here are true, then some serious strange design decision have been taken that appear to FLY IN THE FACE of the general design ethos of 5E. This would not be for the first time in D&D. 2E, 3E and 4E all have a couple of "Man what..." design decisions that undermine the general stuff, and I guess with 5E, the "Man what..." stuff is going to be about "Death = EVIIIIIIIL!" and "Necrotic = EEEEEEVIIIIIL!" (spooky voice, btw!).

I'm saying, if true, these design decisions are bad decisions. That's orthogonal to whether 5E has a lot of options.

Le Sigh! :)

EDIT!

Ok I see what you mean, that if they just avoided any good/evil characterization, then it would be broader because every gaming group could decide their own. E.g. group #1 could play a setting where good clerics cast radiant spells and evil clerics cast death spells, while group #2 could have both cast both and let motivations differentiate them.

Only IMXP it's not that simple. People play the game with different assumptions on what's not written. Having the book decide for you is both a restriction and a guideline or track to follow. Experienced gamers will probably focus on the restriction and dislike, beginners and casual gamers mostly do the opposite (and a lot of people see D&D also as a meta-setting so they like having some stuff defined). But experienced gamers should also have much less problems customizing the stuff (you probably don't even need to create material in this case) to lift the restrictions, compared to inexperienced players having to add definitions and characterizations.

I get what you're saying, I just think the basic design should support like, mainstream D&D, and IME, mainstream D&D has Neutral Death gods, so stuff like Death Domain = Evil, is, to me, wacky "Man what..." stuff that detracts from the power of the meta-setting, and makes me want to say "HELL WITH THE META SETTING YO".

As for new players, I can only speak for myself and my wife, when we both, quite separately, came to to D&D (because we discussed this), and we both had pretty strong feelings about the meta-setting and the ingrained assumptions and so on, and didn't take it for granted or casually accept it in the way you seem to be suggesting beginners/casual gamers do. Perhaps this is because we both read fantasy and have opinions on Good/Evil and so on, but I don't think either trait is uncommon in people coming to D&D! :D

Anyway, I think we probably both get this as well as we are going to, so I won't bore you with it further unless you say something tremendously fascinating on it and I can't resist! :D
 
Last edited:



Can you play FR with the PHB? Yes you can (even with Basic you can), nothing there prevents you to do so. Does it give you enough crunch to create mechanically different Clerics for 20 FR deities? Sadly no, but if it did, then it had to give somebody else something less.

Actually from what we've been told, yes, it does give us the info for mechanically distinct clerics of the deities in an appendix in the PHB. :D

Mike Mearls said that the appendix would list 7 or 8 pantheons (including Forgotten Realms) with the alignments and domains of the deities (and I think brief portfolio info). I'm assuming this is just going to be a chart with a line for each (kind of like in the 3e Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting) but it should most definitely tell us exactly how they intend to handle the domains of non-evil death deities, since those settings include non-evil death deities.

Unless you meant 20 different domains, and then you are of course correct that we won't have that.
 

"Gryffindor?" Why the unholy heck would the Sorting Hat put the Mouse in there? (I mean, not to slander nor try to characterize Ari's naturral allies and friends, of course.)

Wasn't Pettigrew, who turned into a rat, a Slotherin? ("That's just lazy sorting.")

Nope, all the Marauders were Gryffindors.
 

Nope, all the Marauders were Gryffindors.

Thanks for the correction. I see, based on that, that it has been far too many years since I last reread any of the Harry Potter books.

Maybe this decade will be the time for it? I still have through 2021, so there's a good chance it might happen. . . .

- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -

And changing the subject entirely:
Li Shenron and Ruin Explorer have been discussing breadth and restriction, particularly in reference to the Death Domain, and to Radiant and Necrotic damage; in connection with that, I would like to add that they should never have gotten rid of the "Holy" and "Unholy" damage types. (And WotC did do that: they replaced "Holy" with "Radiant," which already had a different job to do; and they replaced "Unholy" with "Necrotic," which already had a different job to do.)
 

Well, looking at the paladin excerpt and re-reading the cleric in Basic, I think I see why they are DMG, but assassin and necromancer aren't.

A rogue who chooses to be an assassin still is fundamentally a rogue. His "role" doesn't change much for it. Similarly, a necromancer doesn't really change how a wizard works. They still "fill" those roles similar to how a the other subtypes do.

A death cleric is not a healer or defender. His focus NOT the same as most other clerics. A blackguard paladin is VERY different than the one described in the PHB. I think that its not just "evil" or "death", but "fundamentally different" and hence DMG.
 

Thread Necromancy [Level 8, Necromancy, Evil]

The Death Domain was called out specific in the Adventurer League Player's Guide

ALPG said:
The Death domain is not allowed unless that rules option is available for your storyline season.

So


1.) It does exist
2.) Its not in the PHB (since we saw the domain list already)
3.) WotC thinks its EVIL enough to not allow it in OP (and they allow LE player characters in it!)

I think its safe to say the Death Domain ain't gonna be modeling Osiris or Kelemvor.
 

Remove ads

Top