Of the "geek" types I knew of when I was growing up, quite a number became "punk rockers" or "headbanger" heavy metal types by the time they were in jr high school. These days "geek" type kids don't seem to have to resort to such extreme measures anymore.
Excited for the future of the hobby
- Thread starter Kzach
- Start date
Of the "geek" types I knew of when I was growing up, quite a number became "punk rockers" or "headbanger" heavy metal types by the time they were in jr high school. These days "geek" type kids don't seem to have to resort to such extreme measures anymore.
Snoweel
First Post
If true, I find that surprising. Not calling you a liar but it doesn't feel right to me.
I guess my experience with gamers in the last decade is people I've introduced to D&D (some of them former gamers) and the denizens of ENWorld, who I think tend to be older. Of course I could be wrong about that too; I've never conducted an age poll here.
I agree.
Once again, surprising about the high school kids, not surprising about college-age kids.
Of course, I'm probably just projecting - I stopped playing in early high school and didn't start again until I got married (at college age).
This just doesn't feel right, but I admit I have zero hard data.
I think though, that the marketing of D&D is more a reflection of the types of non-players likely to become new players than a reflection of who is currently playing.
I think a big part of the D&D market has always been existing players, and that group seems to be getting older. They don't need much marketing because they're very aware of what's going on in the market, and if you're over a certain age and not already playing, you're not likely to start.
So the marketing is aimed at teenagers. Obviously this is hypothesis.
Mate, I agree with you 100% - I play computer games but I don't touch CRPGs because they are just so dissatisfying compared to TTRPGs.
But the fact that I agree, and everybody on this board probably agrees, doesn't mean that the wider population agrees. Neither does it mean that anyone else would think it matters (TTRPGs trumping CRPGs for face-to-face interaction and imagination) even if they did agree. I don't necessarily think those advantages are selling points for most people. Gaming has always been a niche hobby and TTRPG gamers have never been a mainstream demographic.
You could be right.
"Potty mouth" is the problem with this post?
I'm sorry
.I already admitted it's selfish in the post you quoted.
I understand that some people find being offended an exhilarating experience, and I'm glad my up-front admission hasn't robbed you of the opportunity.
I agree! See my reply to Hussar in this very thread.
Vartan
First Post
I'm willing to bet--without the benefit of any scientific study--that tabletop roleplayers are more intelligent and creative than the average bear. They're also more passionate about their hobby: at any point over the past 20 years I could have tossed my game books and thrown myself fully into CCGs or MMORPGs, but like most of the members of this community the tabletop RPG is in my blood.
The hobby obviously needs new blood, and I don't think a hobbyist's tenure gives them special insight into what does or doesn't make RPGs good, or fun.
However, I think the biggest problem facing the hobby today (and something which could potentially scare off new gamers) is the culture of divisiveness that surrounds RPGs (particularly D&D). As a community we can't manage to say "You play Basic D&D, I play 4th Edition, and he plays Rifts. We can have some collegial fun making of each game's peculiarities, but we share more commonalities than we do differences and the world is big enough for all of us, so let's stick together and have some fun."
The RPG community today is dominated by petty bickering. How many words have been written on these boards--by intelligent, well-meaning hobbyists--decrying the GSL? Last I checked the OGL was doing just fine, and all of that energy could have been channeled into creating cool gaming products.
To answer your question...
Heck yeah I'm excited for the future of the hobby! I'm as in love with D&D today as I was when I first cracked open that Basic boxed set. If I went back in time and told the 11 year old Vartan that, in 2010:
1. There would be digital tools for character and adventure creation, and
2. The internet would help you buy whatever game-related products you want and put you in touch with millions of fellow gamers around the world; and
3. There would be multiple licenses available to hobbyists which would enable the commericial publication of D&D-compatible supplements...
then the 11 year old Vartan would have passed out in a fit of geekstacy.
When did we, as a community, lose that sense of wonder? How is it that the flagship RPG enthusiast forum's most successful threads are recycled "The new/old edition of D&D is bad, let us count the ways" discussions?
I follow you, but I want to turn it on it's ear. I'd argue that CRPGs can't compete with TTRPGs under any circumstance. Why? Because the landscape of the imagination is infinite and a CRPG by its very nature must be limited.
But perhaps you hit on the crux of something. CRPGs do "all the work" for you. In the world of a CRPG (which I agree can be impressively deep and immersive), you don't have to visualize each sword swing, you don't have to imagine the color of the sky at dusk, etc. It's all there, sight and sound combined. But any way you slice it you're interaction with the world is limited to what the CRPG lets you do. To that end, a CRPG will never touch a TTRPG.
TTRPGs do face-to-face interaction the best but they also do imagination the best. However, I wonder if so much visual media (TV, movies, computer games, console games, etc) has been delivering kidney punches to imagination.
I'm on board with about 95% of this (I'm not buying a Macbook Pro)
I don't have as many games going on as you, but my experience is quite similar. Playing CRPGs and TTRPGs need not be mutually exclusive.
Between the 2 of you, you actually filled in a gap I intended to address, namely that CRPGs are inherently limited, while any TTRPG (to use the more popular terminology) has the potential to veer off in unexpected directions at any time because the players "agree" to do so.
IOW, TTRPGs can actually have a "sandbox" format- formless until acted upon by the participants- whereas every CRPG to date (and for the forseeable future) is going to be inherently limited by the script that was written for it. Sure, the game designers can release supplements on occasion, but those don't occur every day.
And a TTRPG can change at any given moment.
Raven Crowking
First Post
I'm sorry
No worries,
![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
.Just making sure that "He can't help himself. He's got to mutter and pick his scabs in every thread." (see, no potty mouth) is considered okay by the mods, before I start using it myself.
RC
Snoweel
First Post
No worries,
Just making sure that "He can't help himself. He's got to mutter and pick his scabs in every thread." (see, no potty mouth) is considered okay by the mods, before I start using it myself.
Why not? It's evocative, sounds like D&D and could hardly be said to offend Eric's grandma.
Feel free to use it, but I'd suggest coming up with something of your own. This board needs further random creativity now more than ever. I don't know if you remember it from the earlier part of the last decade, but it wasn't always a place for endless complaints and pompous soapboxing.
And there's only one 't' in
.Raven Crowking
First Post
But I was hoping to use it as one of my dailies....
And there's only one 't' in
isn't a T, it's an E. Given that clue, you'll probably figure out what letters the other smilies represent. 
RC
tyrlaan
Explorer
Agreed. Though "in theory" WotC will be supporting the VTT if they ever put theirs out. Admittedly proprietary and will require a subscription, but I think it would still be a very nice step in the right direction. The fact that WotC even has this on the table is promising to me because it means the company realizes the relevance of VTTs.
Completely see what you're saying. I guarantee (with no evidence to back it up
) that the wider population doesn't agree. Or rather, doesn't understand or isn't aware of it. However, I believe that face-to-face interaction and using your imagination are the precise selling points that need to be heavily leveraged in any attempted ad campaign to try to reign people into the hobby. I can see the add now:
<open scene>CRPG character slicing through enemies with a sword, spamming his heroic strike (WoW reference for my fellow addicts out there
). The CRPG character yawns in boredom while slaying throngs of foes with no real challenge. Out of nowhere another character with a completely different character model (which is vastly more complex and detailed) does a backflip over one enemy, stabs it, leaps to the next and runs it through while drawing a dagger and hurling it into the waiting throat of another enemy.
CRPG character stands and watches in amazement.
CRPG character: "What skill was that?"
Stranger: "Imagination"
CRPG character: "..."
Stranger does something insanely cool to get away.
<pan out, fade to black, or whatever>
Announcer: "Tired of doing the same old thing over and over with limited choice? Try <insert game system here>, where the only thing stopping you is your own imagination."
WotC, if you're reading this I want royalties
While I agree that the nonsense you reference isn't doing us any good, and I'd be thrilled to see it stop, I don't think it has as much bearing on newcomers as you may think. The rationale here (all opinion of course) is that the newcomer to gaming isn't coming to ENWorld or WotC forums to find out more about the game. The newcomer is probably someone who stumbles on the book in a Barnes & Noble or knows someone who plays and gets intrigued by the cool stories that person has about the game. Of course, I could be completely wrong
My friends and I play video games. We did Everquest, WoW, Neverwinter Nights, and the like. They were fun for a while. Many of my friends play many other games. But we still always come back to D&D.
The market segment for D&D has never been real large. Probably never will be.
But I think there will almost always be a small segment of people that will enjoy Pen and Paper RPGs. A pen and paper RPG run by a good DM can take you places a video game can't touch. Those folks with very vivid, active imaginations will find that engine is far superior to anything yet produced by a video game.
The satisfaction of fully fleshing out a character in a long-term campaign doesn't feel the same in a video game. In a video game you raid Naxarramas over and over again and you never feel like you have saved a single soul or changed the world in even a small way. But when you finish a mega module like the Temple of Elemental Evil, Sword of the Dales or the 3E adventure series ending with Bastion of Broken Souls, you feel like you saved the world and accomplished something truly grand. Your character is a hero and doesn't have to show up to do it all again next week. Not even the single player RPGs make you feel quite as good because your character has no real personality. He chooses his interaction options and is done.
But in a Pen and Paper RPG you can build any kind of character and background you feel like making. No limitations but what the DM allows. With a good DM you can develop a personality for your character and really become immersed in the campaign and how your character develops to the point you almost feel like you are there. And when you win a close fought battle, you feel the thrill of victory rather than waiting for the rezzers to get you up again for another wipe until you learn the encounter.
There are many things in a Pen and Paper RPG that will never be satisfied with video game, at least not in the near future. That's why I continue to play. If I could get exactly the same thing from a video game, I'd be playing them.
The market segment for D&D has never been real large. Probably never will be.
But I think there will almost always be a small segment of people that will enjoy Pen and Paper RPGs. A pen and paper RPG run by a good DM can take you places a video game can't touch. Those folks with very vivid, active imaginations will find that engine is far superior to anything yet produced by a video game.
The satisfaction of fully fleshing out a character in a long-term campaign doesn't feel the same in a video game. In a video game you raid Naxarramas over and over again and you never feel like you have saved a single soul or changed the world in even a small way. But when you finish a mega module like the Temple of Elemental Evil, Sword of the Dales or the 3E adventure series ending with Bastion of Broken Souls, you feel like you saved the world and accomplished something truly grand. Your character is a hero and doesn't have to show up to do it all again next week. Not even the single player RPGs make you feel quite as good because your character has no real personality. He chooses his interaction options and is done.
But in a Pen and Paper RPG you can build any kind of character and background you feel like making. No limitations but what the DM allows. With a good DM you can develop a personality for your character and really become immersed in the campaign and how your character develops to the point you almost feel like you are there. And when you win a close fought battle, you feel the thrill of victory rather than waiting for the rezzers to get you up again for another wipe until you learn the encounter.
There are many things in a Pen and Paper RPG that will never be satisfied with video game, at least not in the near future. That's why I continue to play. If I could get exactly the same thing from a video game, I'd be playing them.
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