Excited for the future of the hobby

[Snoweel]

Recently in Australia there was a furore over the proposal to create an R rating for video games. I can't find it, but a study of gamers in Australia found that the core demographic of gamers was 25-35, not 15-25 like most people would suspect.

Just about everybody I know is in the 25-35 demographic and almost all of us waste a large part of our lives playing computer games.

But when I was in the infantry most guys were under 25 and while they were more likely to go out drinking Thursday to Sunday, they all played computer games too.

The amount of computer games played by 25-35s has nothing to do with the 15-25 age group, many of whom have minimal disposable income (if any) and can't be compared to 25-35s.

For the purposes of this discussion you're better off comparing the computer game playing habits of the 15-25 age group right now with (whenever it was that the core TTRPG demographic were 15-25).

 

[Kzach]

For the purposes of this discussion you're better off comparing the computer game playing habits of the 15-25 age group right now with (whenever it was that the core TTRPG demographic were 15-25).

Partly, I am.

I was that demographic twenty years ago. I played CRPGS. Don't be tellin' me Zelda and the SSI games weren't awesome, 'cause I spent days playing through Pool of Radiance, Eye of the Beholder and many other CRPGS that were pure awesome.

The penetration of the C64 and Atari and NES I would bet are on par with the current penetration of the XBox and PS3, all things being equal.

I get enjoyment out of playing CRPGs and TTRPGs. They are not the same thing, and never will be, and therefore scratch different itches.

 

[Snoweel]

Partly, I am.

I was that demographic twenty years ago.

Then I'm probably about 5 years younger than you.

I played CRPGS. Don't be tellin' me Zelda and the SSI games weren't awesome, 'cause I spent days playing through Pool of Radiance, Eye of the Beholder and many other CRPGS that were pure awesome.

Yeah me too dude, and I loved them. I've never enjoyed a CRPG as much as Pool of Radiance.

The penetration of the C64 and Atari and NES I would bet are on par with the current penetration of the XBox and PS3, all things being equal.

I don't know what you mean by 'all things being equal' in this case. But I think the penetration is very different, then to now. I also think the advance in TTRPGs since then hasn't even come close to how CRPGs have increased in sophistication over the same period of time.

I also don't think TTRPGs have really had any need to, since they're not based on technology.

I get enjoyment out of playing CRPGs and TTRPGs. They are not the same thing, and never will be, and therefore scratch different itches.

Things don't need to be the same to compete with each other, and ultimately hobbies are competing for our time, our money and our emotional investment(among other things).

 

[Kzach]

I don't know what you mean by 'all things being equal' in this case. But I think the penetration is very different, then to now. I also think the advance in TTRPGs since then hasn't even come close to how CRPGs have increased in sophistication over the same period of time.

I mean... like how a million dollars back then is worth more comparatively speaking than a million dollars is worth now. You say the sophistication of CRPG's has come a long way and that's true, but back when Pool of Radiance was new, I didn't look at it and go, "OMG, this is so unsophisticated!"

To me, at that time, it was the height of sophistication, just like whatever new CRPG comes out now gives the same impression as Pool of Radiance did back then.

The market today for consoles and PC games is much, much larger than it was back then. So it's unfair to compare the two without equalising things out a bit. So by saying, 'all things being equal', I mean that penetration of consoles and PC gaming is roughly the same percentage of the market as it was back then. Adjusting for the size of the market today so that you can compare to the market size of yesteryear.

In other words, all my friends and I all had C64's and NES's and before that, Atari's playing Frogger. We all had hand-held Donkey Kong's and Mario Bros. and traded them between us. Just like today most kids have an iPhone or a DS.

And we still played TTRPG's.

I still play CRPG's. I'm half-way through levelling a newer, better looking, Shepard to be ready for when I can afford Mass Effect 2. I'm dying to play Dragon Age but I'm saving money for a Macbook Pro.

But I still play in one weekly game, DM another weekly game, play LFR online whenever I can get a spot, and I'm about to join my uni's Roleplaying Society sometime this week or next. This amongst full-time study and part-time work.

I also hang out with regular non-gaming friends on weekends.

I don't think I'm alone in this level of activity. I think it's about normal for most people. Point being, just because I play CRPG's, doesn't mean I don't play TTRPG's or have a social life outside of gaming.

Are kids so different today that they only play CRPG's in preference to everything else?

 

[Hussar]

/snip



I seriously doubt this. In fact, I outright disbelieve it (save ends).

Well, obviously I have no hard evidence. However, two separate reader polls by Paizo when they ran Dungeon and Dragon put their average readership at under 25. The last one was about 22 (IIRC).

I have no real reason to think that the readership of Dragon or Dungeon would be all that different than the average D&D gamer. It could be, and I freely admit it's not even remotely solid proof. But, at least anecdotally, it looks like gamers are a pretty young bunch.

Ryan Dancey, as well, pretty clearly labeled the two biggest demographics for 3e was high school and college age - both times when you have large groups of people with lots of free time and a fair bit of disposable cash, but not a lot of mobility.

So, it would not surprise me at all to learn that the average age of a TTRPG gamer is younger than the average age of a video gamer.

/snip
For the purposes of this discussion you're better off comparing the computer game playing habits of the 15-25 age group right now with (whenever it was that the core TTRPG demographic were 15-25).

The core TTRPG demographic has ALWAYS been 15-25. Look at the marketing if you think I'm wrong. OD&D was reboxed as Basic/Expert D&D, for 10 and up. AD&D was flogged on Saturday morning cartoons - basically 10 year olds again. Every D&D novel is YA fiction, I can't think of a single adult title in the lot. Heck, it wasn't until Vampire the Masquerade that you saw "adult" themes as central to an RPG. And Vampire actually had a prime time (if very short lived) TV series and spawned the Underworld movies.

But D&D? D&D is, and always has been, targeting teens.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Veiled insults towards 4e and 4e players are so passe.

My ten-year-old daughter plays RCFG. Is that insulting?

I don't think so.

EDIT: Which also comes up in the post you responded to.

The reference comes from Snoweel, who is a 4e fan (AFAICT), and refers to the media driving the game background, and nothing more.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

Part of me wants the hobby to grow while another part doesn't want my game marketed at 15 year olds. I think selfish grognardism is natural but ultimately not good for the hobby.

My point was, there are games marketed at both grognards and 15-year-olds. One does not have to choose one or the other. And that is a good thing.


RC

 

[Raven Crowking]

He can't help himself. He's got to mutter and pick his scabs in every ing thread.

Moderator?

 

[tyrlaan]

Although, I think you underestimate the attraction to being a "geek" in todays youth culture. Geekdom is very chic, very much hip at the moment.

Man, I was born in the wrong decade then I have seen that 'geek' seems to be getting more mainstream though and your assessment from your experiences is something I'm welcome to hear.

IMHO, I don't think that P&P RPGs can compete with CRPGs if they cover the same ground- the CPRGs have the visual/auditory immersion factor and an instant accessibility (no rules mastery required) that RPGs can't match.

And as the CRPGs continue to attract decent writers, the lack of having to have one guy behind a screen doing all the prep work and being able to game at any time of the day without having to coordinate schedules?

That is a gulf P&P RPGs can't bridge.

What P&P games do best is the face-to-face social interaction that simply can't exist over the Internet.

I follow you, but I want to turn it on it's ear. I'd argue that CRPGs can't compete with TTRPGs under any circumstance. Why? Because the landscape of the imagination is infinite and a CRPG by its very nature must be limited.

But perhaps you hit on the crux of something. CRPGs do "all the work" for you. In the world of a CRPG (which I agree can be impressively deep and immersive), you don't have to visualize each sword swing, you don't have to imagine the color of the sky at dusk, etc. It's all there, sight and sound combined. But any way you slice it you're interaction with the world is limited to what the CRPG lets you do. To that end, a CRPG will never touch a TTRPG.

TTRPGs do face-to-face interaction the best but they also do imagination the best. However, I wonder if so much visual media (TV, movies, computer games, console games, etc) has been delivering kidney punches to imagination.

And we still played TTRPG's.

I still play CRPG's. I'm half-way through levelling a newer, better looking, Shepard to be ready for when I can afford Mass Effect 2. I'm dying to play Dragon Age but I'm saving money for a Macbook Pro.

But I still play in one weekly game, DM another weekly game, play LFR online whenever I can get a spot, and I'm about to join my uni's Roleplaying Society sometime this week or next. This amongst full-time study and part-time work.

I also hang out with regular non-gaming friends on weekends.

I don't think I'm alone in this level of activity. I think it's about normal for most people. Point being, just because I play CRPG's, doesn't mean I don't play TTRPG's or have a social life outside of gaming.

I'm on board with about 95% of this (I'm not buying a Macbook Pro )

I don't have as many games going on as you, but my experience is quite similar. Playing CRPGs and TTRPGs need not be mutually exclusive.

 

[questing gm]

Whether that's a happy, scary, or nauseating thought will vary from individual to individual, I guess.

All of the above I say.