Excited for the future of the hobby

[Kzach]

I'll just taunt you from Ballarat with all my players here then.

Cheers!

That's ok. I barely consider Ballarat as being habitable by human-beings, let alone a part of Victoria

 

[Stormonu]

Boys these days are playing RPG's the problem for WOTC is that they are playing them on the computer. Kids will talk to me for hours about Oblivion and WOW, D&D doesn't rate a mention. Who knows with the new 'Red Box' though I suspect they will struggle to get the attention ahead of the latest X-box release.

D&D was popular back in the days when Atari 2600, Colecovision and Intellivision (and arcades) ruled. Kids were playing video games even back then. If D&D is done right, it will garner young people's attention.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

D&D was popular back in the days when Atari 2600, Colecovision and Intellivision (and arcades) ruled. Kids were playing video games even back then. If D&D is done right, it will garner young people's attention.

Honestly, I think that's a bit of wishful thinking.

D&D lured me away from my Atari 2600, no doubt. But today's computer games and console games are infinitely more immersive and require a LOT more attention than any electronic game from the early days of RPGs.

 

[Snoweel]

Veiled insults towards 4e and 4e players are so passe.

He can't help himself. He's got to mutter and pick his scabs in every ing thread.


Mod Edit:
Folks, what we see here is an invocation of the language filter. It means the poster here could not control his tongue in a civil way, so he got bleeped. However, the existence of the filter does not mean you have a right to be a potty-mouth, because we can still tell you intend foul language, which is not allowed on the family-friendly EN World. Please do not stoop to use of such language on these boards. Thank you.

 

[N0Man]

It's a funny thing.

Part of me wants the hobby to grow while another part doesn't want my game marketed at 15 year olds. I think selfish grognardism is natural but ultimately not good for the hobby.

This reminds me of a post I saw before 4E came out saying that part of their reason for not liking some rule changes in 4E (such as 1:1 diagonal movement) was because it might encourage more of the "wrong crowd" into the game, that is people not as good at math...

My thoughts are:

• Tabletop gaming (and not just D&D) needs new blood (and that's always been true).
• D&D has always been marketed heavily towards teens. The marketing got me interested when I was a teen too, 20 years ago.
• Being "marketed to" teens does not mean that it's strictly designed for them (or ever has been), but it might mean some concessions are made in order to keep it family friendly.
• However, the D&D design team is also made up of long-term D&D players who also have a passion for the game and aren't looking to turn it into a kiddy game or intentionally ruin it in any manner.
• Regardless of what game system you prefer, more people in the hobby (regardless of demographic) means more gradual bleed over effect into other systems and games (including yours), and a healthier hobby in general.
• Being dismissive, elitist, or derogatory about other games, game styles, potential player demographics, or players of other games only hurts the hobby and can potentially either turn off new players from a game they might have enjoyed and end up not gaming at all, or makes us look like we're part of an anti-social nerd scene which is an image that many casuals are going to not feel comfortable in.

I also want to say that it frustrates me a little when 4E is portrayed (or implied) as being "dumbed down" or designed for kids, or heading that way. I see it as more of a matter of "user-friendliness".

That might have the effect of making easier for kids, but it also makes it easier to pick up for intelligent and creative adults who have busy lives. The same is true for casual gamers, people who are "gaming-curious", and people who might not have considered gaming previously and might have been turned off by more complex games. One appreciating simplicity does not mean they are unable to grasp complexity.

I've never seen kids playing 4E yet, but I do play with a few couples, which include wives who never tried or enjoyed RPGs before 4E. Some of those couples do play with their kids though, and enjoy it as a family. That's something I rarely saw in previous editions.

 

[Snoweel]

When was D&D NOT marketted at 15 year olds? Let's see - Boxed set - 10+. Saturday morning cartoon - definitely the teen crowd. Ads on the back of comic books - teens. D&D computer games - teens. Artwork? Teen friendly. Themes in the game? PG, PG-13 at the outside. Novel series - definitely teen and YA fiction there.

So, at what point in time has D&D ever NOT been marketed to teens?

Fair point. Though 3e seemed to be aimed more at the (formerly teen) existing player base that had grown up with earlier editions.

In my opinion (and I'm a 4e fan) the marketing of 4e is aimed at a younger market than 3e was at least. Of course, that could just be my perception. I was in my early 20's for the release of 3e and I felt I was at the younger edge of the target demographic.

On a side note, I always love that Teen=computer gamer. Never mind all the statistics that say computer gamers are in their mid 20's.

I think you'll find computer gamers run the gamut from pre-teens to death, if you want to generalise.

Mid 20's might have the disposable income and freedom to spend the most on computer games, but that doesn't mean that teenagers aren't just as obsessed with them.

If anything, computer gamers are OLDER than TTRPG'ers on average.

I seriously doubt this. In fact, I outright disbelieve it (save ends).

 

[Stormonu]

Honestly, I think that's a bit of wishful thinking.

D&D lured me away from my Atari 2600, no doubt. But today's computer games and console games are infinitely more immersive and require a LOT more attention than any electronic game from the early days of RPGs.

And as video games have evolved, RPGs have been evolving - though they're had a long point of stagnation back in the 90's. Like video games, D&D and other RPGs aren't as bare-boned and low-graphics as their predecessors were. It just seems no one has quite yet hit the magic formula that will draw folks back to the game table in droves. Look, for example how the Harry Potter books put a revival into the young adult book market. If WotC or another group can find the "perfect storm", they might get a surge of popularity they're looking for (maybe actually draw some of those WoW folks to the game and away from their PCs for a while*).

The Red Box is probably a step forward, but I don't think it will be nearly enough; the one-level coverage strikes me as way too little. I know, for me at least, that for the longest time I didn't bother to expand past the old Red Box - it was a complete enough game to keep me happy for at least 2 years. I'd much rather have seen them do a 3-level boxed set...with a CD of the character builder software included to entice both getting DDI and interest buyers in "the game beyond".

* No, this isn't "4E is WoW", but I had two WoW players in my game group who come to try out/play 4E, and they were highly disappointed by the game mechanics (They now play World of Darkness with me, and love it).

 

[Snoweel]

While I don't play WoW, I'm sure if it existed when I was 10 I would never have bothered playing D&D.

While I get out of TTRPGs something that CRPGs are a long way from being able to offer (if ever), when I was a kid I pined for a game like WoW.

Then again, as Stormonu points out, Harry Potter has revived young adult reading and those fans are exactly the kind of people who are likely to get out of D&D what most of us established gamers do. But aiming D&D too young is a mistake, IMO. I was a pretty smart kid and what I got out of D&D until I stopped playing at age 14, would have been better provided by WoW. What I have gotten out of D&D since starting again at age 23 is more in line with what the Harry Potter series provides.

I just think early 20's (probably late teens) is a better target demographic than anything under 15 years of age, but of course my 'research' is entirely anecdotal.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

And as video games have evolved, RPGs have been evolving - though they're had a long point of stagnation back in the 90's. Like video games, D&D and other RPGs aren't as bare-boned and low-graphics as their predecessors were. It just seems no one has quite yet hit the magic formula that will draw folks back to the game table in droves. Look, for example how the Harry Potter books put a revival into the young adult book market. If WotC or another group can find the "perfect storm", they might get a surge of popularity they're looking for (maybe actually draw some of those WoW folks to the game and away from their PCs for a while*).

IMHO, I don't think that P&P RPGs can compete with CRPGs if they cover the same ground- the CPRGs have the visual/auditory immersion factor and an instant accessibility (no rules mastery required) that RPGs can't match.

And as the CRPGs continue to attract decent writers, the lack of having to have one guy behind a screen doing all the prep work and being able to game at any time of the day without having to coordinate schedules?

That is a gulf P&P RPGs can't bridge.

What P&P games do best is the face-to-face social interaction that simply can't exist over the Internet.

While Harry Potter is a good example, IME (which may or may not be indicative of the series' overall readership), many of the new readers J.K. Rowling nabbed didn't venture far beyond her protagonist. They didn't become "readers," just Harry Potter fans.

Don't get me wrong, though...

I was just in Generation X in Euless, Tx today- buying Pathfinder, if you must know- opining that I didn't think there was a better time to be a RPG hobbyist.

IMHO, there are more quality games on the market than at any time in the past. Even some of the formerly OoP games of yesteryear have found new publishers and are back on the market. Other games have even found life in multiple game systems.

Simply put...

If you can't find an RPG you like, you're either not trying hard enough, or the hobby REALLY isn't for you.

 

[Kzach]

I think you'll find computer gamers run the gamut from pre-teens to death, if you want to generalise.

Recently in Australia there was a furore over the proposal to create an R rating for video games. I can't find it, but a study of gamers in Australia found that the core demographic of gamers was 25-35, not 15-25 like most people would suspect.