Exhaustion

[DEFCON 1]

I wonder if a few more sentences in the PHB about there being a bunch of optional rules the DM might pick for a given campaign would help with this part of the social interaction. (Apparently, for example, the wording around common and uncommon races in the PHB isn't "enough" for implying one shouldn't make and have their heart set on a character before even hearing the potential DMs pitch, for example. And of course, the potential DM shouldn't expect the current group of players to buy their pitch this time around.)

At what point does WotC have to continually hold the hand of every player who can't be bothered to read the rules, who then get into arguments with their DM because the DM is daring to include rules from the DMG in a game that they specifically are running?

Heck... I've seen posts here in all these threads with players making comments about these new rules they don't think work or make sense... only for someone to point out "Uh... this gets mentioned and referenced here." Even here people can't be bothered to read the rules! So why should WotC waste time, space, energy, and money adding more and more redundant mentions of rules all over the place just trying to baby-proof them for those people? If you can't be bothered to read the rules... then too bad when the DM "springs" something on you. That ain't the DM's problem, and it certainly isn't WotC's problem.

 

[Micah Sweet]

At what point does WotC have to continually hold the hand of every player who can't be bothered to read the rules, who then get into arguments with their DM because the DM is daring to include rules from the DMG in a game that they specifically are running?

Heck... I've seen posts here in all these threads with players making comments about these new rules they don't think work or make sense... only for someone to point out "Uh... this gets mentioned and referenced here." Even here people can't be bothered to read the rules! So why should WotC waste time, space, energy, and money adding more and more redundant mentions of rules all over the place just trying to baby-proof them for those people? If you can't be bothered to read the rules... then too bad when the DM "springs" something on you. That ain't the DM's problem, and it certainly isn't WotC's problem.

I think WotC just wants players to be happy since that way they will buy their books. Anything that could make that happen, including "holding their hand" at every opportunity, is on the table. I don't like it, but that's what I see.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

At what point does WotC have to continually hold the hand of every player who can't be bothered to read the rules, who then get into arguments with their DM because the DM is daring to include rules from the DMG in a game that they specifically are running?

Heck... I've seen posts here in all these threads with players making comments about these new rules they don't think work or make sense... only for someone to point out "Uh... this gets mentioned and referenced here." Even here people can't be bothered to read the rules! So why should WotC waste time, space, energy, and money adding more and more redundant mentions of rules all over the place just trying to baby-proof them for those people? If you can't be bothered to read the rules... then too bad when the DM "springs" something on you. That ain't the DM's problem, and it certainly isn't WotC's problem.

I do not think it is all about handholding. Wizards often do not make things easy. If you want to study up on the rules for hiding, it is often not enough to look at the definition of hiding or the hide action. There are interactions implied in the rules on invisibility, blindsight and so on that can modify the interpterion.
Add into that the often, subtle changes in these rules between editions. At this point I have the legacy of about 5 different version of D&D rattling about in my head.

 

[Cadence]

At what point does WotC have to continually hold the hand of every player who can't be bothered to read the rules, who then get into arguments with their DM because the DM is daring to include rules from the DMG in a game that they specifically are running?

Heck... I've seen posts here in all these threads with players making comments about these new rules they don't think work or make sense... only for someone to point out "Uh... this gets mentioned and referenced here." Even here people can't be bothered to read the rules! So why should WotC waste time, space, energy, and money adding more and more redundant mentions of rules all over the place just trying to baby-proof them for those people? If you can't be bothered to read the rules... then too bad when the DM "springs" something on you. That ain't the DM's problem, and it certainly isn't WotC's problem.

Enough that the only place it shows up isn't buried in the introduction?

- second full paragraph on page 6 of the PHB

If the player misses that to get to the good stuff...

In Chapter 1, for example, when it runs through making a character, unless I missed it, it doesn't seem to imply at any point that the DM might have some restrictions on what races or classes are out there. It is all about the player choosing any options they want and "What’s important is that you come to the table with a character you’re excited to play."

It does note the DM might decide to have you begin at a higher level. It mentions that there is a standard array and the variant of point buy as options beyond the rolling, but leaves it entirely to the player if they roll or standard, and that they have a third choice of the point buy if the DM lets them have that as a third option. For backgrounds it explicitly says the DM might offer additional backgrounds or work with you on one, but never hints they might restrict them.

In Chapter Two, it doesn't mention that the DM might restrict what races are available - except that you should ask permission to play a Drow.

Chapter Three says the twelve classes "are found in almost every D&D world", but doesn't say how one knows if they are or not.

etc...

One extra sentence or tiny box to start each of those three chapters doesn't feel awful to me or like it's asking WotC to put in extraordinary effort.

Edit: Or I'd even take them putting some sort of emphasis around it in the introduction I guess, instead of it just sitting there as part of a wall of text.

 

[DEFCON 1]

One extra sentence or tiny box to start each of those three chapters doesn't feel awful to me or like it's asking WotC to put in extraordinary effort.

I dunno... maybe I just think less of the overall playerbase I guess. If they can't be bothered to read the rulebook and the DM can't be bothered to tell their players the rules they are using before the game starts... WotC doesn't need to try and beg and plead for them to do so by running up flags every three pages saying "Read the rules please!!!" At some point, personal accountability must come into play.

But of course that's just my opinion... I could be wrong.

 

[MarkB]

Given the lack of exploration-based abilities in the new ranger, we might not be getting an exploration pillar at all mechanically.

On the other hand, the ranger does have a class feature that involves Exhaustion, the 11th-level Tireless feature which improves exhaustion recovery. That suggests that we might see some wider use of exhaustion.

With this new version, I could see exhaustion being inflicted as a spell effect - currently the only spell which inflicts exhaustion as a hostile effect is sickening radiance, and even then the effect goes away once the spell ends.

 

[Wyckedemus]

I've been contemplating having spells like Revivify, Resurrection, Reincarnation, and True Resurrection gave the recipient a level of Exhaustion. Being killed and returned to life seems like a harrowing experience.

Agreed. Both Raise Dead and Resurrection say the following:

"Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a −4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears."

This works exactly how the new "Exhaustion" rule works. They can be reworded to grant "4 levels of Exhaustion" and it does the same thing.

I also believe that if a character drops to 0 HP, they should get a level of exhaustion, which would impact their Death Saves too, as those would be d20 Tests. The more Yo-Yo you go, the worse off you get.

 

[Stalker0]

I also believe that if a character drops to 0 HP, they should get a level of exhaustion, which would impact their Death Saves too, as those would be d20 Tests. The more Yo-Yo you go, the worse off you get.

It would also be easy to put in official or house rule that for every death failure you take you suffer a level of exhaustion, in case you want to add in a little more pain.

 

[Li Shenron]

The new exhaustion rules would have fit 3e quite well.

Too much fiddly bits for 5e.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

The new exhaustion rules would have fit 3e quite well.

Too much fiddly bits for 5e.

But... it is simpler than the extant 5e exhaustion rules.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

But... it is simpler than the extant 5e exhaustion rules.

Simpler and more usable. it is more granular, the death spiral is linear instead of exponential. The PCs have time to act before the issue become irreversible.

 

[UngainlyTitan]

It would be interesting if Wizards introduces another mechanic that causes exhaustion or uses the impacts of exhaustion. The odd thing about the existing exhaustions rules is that they kind of on its own. OK barbarians had to interact with the exhaustion rules but otherwise interaction with the exhaustion rules was more or less optional.

 

[Corinnguard]

I don't have access to the playtest material regarding how One D&D is going to be handling Exhaustion, but does it provide everyone a table that describes what each level of Exhaustion will do to a given character? curious Level Up does with Fatigue, which it refers to as a Tracked Condition. Fatigue covers levels of Physical Stress while Strife covers levels of Mental Stress.

Fatigue
Level 1-Cannot Sprint
Level 2- Disadvantage on Strength, Dexterity and Constitution checks
Level 3-Speed halved and unable to maintain a fast traveled pace
Level 4- Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws using Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, and unable to maintain a normal travel pace
Level 5-Hit Dice Halved
Level 6- Speed reduced to 5 ft. and unable to maintain a slow travel pace
Level 7- DOOMED!

Strife
Level 1- Disadvantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma checks
Level 2- Disadvantage on concentration checks
Level 3- Can only take a bonus action or action each turn (not both)
Level 4- Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws using Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
Level 5- Suffer the effects of a randomly determined short-term mental stress effect.
Level 6- Cannot cast spells (but can cast cantrips)
Level 7-Suffer the effects of a randomly determined long-term mental stress effect.

The Short-Term mental stress effects are- Bewildered, Cowed, Distraught, Enraged, Flippant, Musical, Obsessed, On Edge, Sleepless and Terrorized.
The Long-Term mental stress effects are- Covetous, Distorted Perceptions (hallucinations, I am guessing), Hopeless, Inimical, Memory Wipe, Murderous, Peacekeeping, Phobia, Superstitious, Suspicious

The mental stress effects to me sound like something like the players have to role-play with until their characters find a way to relax and unwind.

Is One D&D going to cover mental exhaustion as well as physical exhaustion?

 

[Horwath]

@Corinnguard

mental vs physical stress can also be split with -1 modifier:

Fatigue:
-1 to all str, dex and con attacks, checks and saves per fatigue level
-1 to str, dex and con based DCs per fatigue level
-1 AC per fatigue level
-5 ft speed per fatigue level(min of 5ft speed)

Strife:
-1 to all int, wis and cha attacks, checks and saves per strife level
-1 to all int, wis and cha DCs per strife level

 

[Corinnguard]

@Corinnguard

mental vs physical stress can also be split with -1 modifier:

Fatigue:
-1 to all str, dex and con attacks, checks and saves per fatigue level
-1 to str, dex and con based DCs per fatigue level
-1 AC per fatigue level
-5 ft speed per fatigue level(min of 5ft speed)

Strife:
-1 to all int, wis and cha attacks, checks and saves per strife level
-1 to all int, wis and cha DCs per strife level

So if I had a character who picked up 6 levels of Fatigue, the character would have a -6 to all attacks, -6 to all STR, DEX, and CON checks and saves, -6 to STR, DEX and CON based DC's, -6 to AC and -30 ft. speed. However, their HD would remain unaffected. No loss of HD to represent internal injuries from pushing themselves beyond what they are capable of.

As for Strife, no loss in spellcasting ability or lack of concentration?

 

[tetrasodium]

I don't have access to the playtest material regarding how One D&D is going to be handling Exhaustion, but does it provide everyone a table that describes what each level of Exhaustion will do to a given character? curious Level Up does with Fatigue, which it refers to as a Tracked Condition. Fatigue covers levels of Physical Stress while Strife covers levels of Mental Stress.

Fatigue
Level 1-Cannot Sprint
Level 2- Disadvantage on Strength, Dexterity and Constitution checks
Level 3-Speed halved and unable to maintain a fast traveled pace
Level 4- Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws using Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, and unable to maintain a normal travel pace
Level 5-Hit Dice Halved
Level 6- Speed reduced to 5 ft. and unable to maintain a slow travel pace
Level 7- DOOMED!

Strife
Level 1- Disadvantage on Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma checks
Level 2- Disadvantage on concentration checks
Level 3- Can only take a bonus action or action each turn (not both)
Level 4- Disadvantage on attack rolls and saving throws using Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma
Level 5- Suffer the effects of a randomly determined short-term mental stress effect.
Level 6- Cannot cast spells (but can cast cantrips)
Level 7-Suffer the effects of a randomly determined long-term mental stress effect.

The Short-Term mental stress effects are- Bewildered, Cowed, Distraught, Enraged, Flippant, Musical, Obsessed, On Edge, Sleepless and Terrorized.
The Long-Term mental stress effects are- Covetous, Distorted Perceptions (hallucinations, I am guessing), Hopeless, Inimical, Memory Wipe, Murderous, Peacekeeping, Phobia, Superstitious, Suspicious

The mental stress effects to me sound like something like the players have to role-play with until their characters find a way to relax and unwind.

Is One D&D going to cover mental exhaustion as well as physical exhaustion?

It's minus one to d20 rolls & spell DC per point up to minus ten where the character dies.

I've been running levelup since it came out & fatigue is useful but also a bit too hard to get in any amount that matters IME.

 

[Corinnguard]

It's minus one to d20 rolls & spell DC per point up to minus ten where the character dies.

I've been running levelup since it came out & fatigue is useful but also a bit too hard to get in any amount that matters IME.

What would push a character to the point where they would acquire 10 levels of exhaustion and then die?

Good point. It kind of depends on how often the party stops for a short or long rest. If the party decides not to rest between encounters, then I could see physical and mental exhaustion setting in. As for tracking fatigue and strife, it might require another deck of cards for the narrator to hand out to the players.

 

[tetrasodium]

What would push a character to the point where they would acquire 10 levels of exhaustion and then die?

Good point. It kind of depends on how often the party stops for a short or long rest. If the party decides not to rest between encounters, then I could see physical and mental exhaustion setting in. As for tracking fatigue and strife, it might require another deck of cards for the narrator to hand out to the players.

Past editions had a ten point buffer of negative hp before a character died but it needed to be healed like hp too. If it works like that (by default or optional rule) then just taking ten points more damage than remaining up would do it. With players aware of the extreme risk of being atlw hp they act accordingly rather than expecting to rely on death saves. As a shield.

 

[Horwath]

So if I had a character who picked up 6 levels of Fatigue, the character would have a -6 to all attacks, -6 to all STR, DEX, and CON checks and saves, -6 to STR, DEX and CON based DC's, -6 to AC and -30 ft. speed. However, their HD would remain unaffected. No loss of HD to represent internal injuries from pushing themselves beyond what they are capable of.

No need to fiddle with HD mechanics, penalty to AC and saves describes easier HP loss

As for Strife, no loss in spellcasting ability or lack of concentration?

Again no need to be so binary with loss of spellcasting.
penalty to spell attacks and DCs describes weaker and weaker spellcasting.
Also concentration is affected by fatigue.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

I'd like exhaustion to happen regularly and certain healing spells to reduce it (either restoration or a new spell called Invigoration). As written, it should come from both mental and physical sources.