Yeah....kinda agree.
Exhaustion
- Thread starter jasper
- Start date
MarkB
Legend
Yeah, but the problem with advantage/disadvantage is that the more sources there are of them in play, the more likely it is that everything just gets cancelled down to straight rolls.
Fog Cloud was always the most obvious example of this. Everyone gets advantage on attack rolls because their target can't see them, and also gets disadvantage on attack rolls because they can't see the target, so the fight just proceeds with nobody being able to get either advantage or disadvantage.
Branduil
Hero
That's one legitimate problem with the system. Perhaps it would be good to have something like Greater Advantage and Greater Disadvantage, which can't be cancelled (if you would have both, the one you received more recently applies).
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
That’s a funky case that needs to be addressed. It should be “if you can see a target who can’t see you” not just “if the target can’t see you.”
In other words, that’s a problem with the specific rule (there may be others) not with the advantage/disadvantage system in general.
Monsters that inflict exhaustion with their attacks, perhaps.
It could be the new energy drain. Max hit point reduction never seemed quite right to me.
FitzTheRuke
Legend
Sure, and environmental effects and injuries (as an optional rule, likely).
it's a lot worse than that. Look at what fog cloud did in the past
A bank of fog billows out from the point you designate. The fog obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. A creature within 5 feet has concealment (attacks have a 20% miss chance). Creatures farther away have total concealment (50% miss chance, and the attacker can’t use sight to locate the target).
2e version was almost an illusion spell
The fog cloud spell can be cast in one of two ways, at the caster’s
option: as a large, stationary bank of normal fog, or as a harmless fog
that resembles the 5th-level wizard spell cloudkill.
As a fog bank, this spell creates a fog of any size and shape up to
a maximum 20-foot cube per caster level. The fog obscures all sight,
normal and infravision, beyond 2 feet.
As a cloudkill-like fog, this is a billowing mass of ghastly, yellowish-
green vapors, measuring 40 feet × 20 feet × 20 feet. This moves
away from the caster at 10 feet per round. The vapors are heavier
than air and sink to the lowest level, even pouring down sinkholes
and den openings. Very thick vegetation breaks up the fog after it has
moved 20 feet into the vegetation.
The only effect of either version is to obscure vision. A strong
breeze will disperse either effect in one round, while a moderate
breeze will reduce the spell duration by 50%. The spell cannot be
cast under water.
option: as a large, stationary bank of normal fog, or as a harmless fog
that resembles the 5th-level wizard spell cloudkill.
As a fog bank, this spell creates a fog of any size and shape up to
a maximum 20-foot cube per caster level. The fog obscures all sight,
normal and infravision, beyond 2 feet.
As a cloudkill-like fog, this is a billowing mass of ghastly, yellowish-
green vapors, measuring 40 feet × 20 feet × 20 feet. This moves
away from the caster at 10 feet per round. The vapors are heavier
than air and sink to the lowest level, even pouring down sinkholes
and den openings. Very thick vegetation breaks up the fog after it has
moved 20 feet into the vegetation.
The only effect of either version is to obscure vision. A strong
breeze will disperse either effect in one round, while a moderate
breeze will reduce the spell duration by 50%. The spell cannot be
cast under water.
2e had a lot of differences with skills but The 5e version doesn't even try doing any of that misleading illusion type stuff
(dis)advantage as the first last & only mechanic overly limits what effects things can have.
MarkB
Legend
Yeah, but it's illustrative of the issue. Once you have at least one source of advantage and one source of disadvantage in play, adding more of either does nothing - so too much proliferation of sources of advantage and disadvantage makes the system break down.
AnotherGuy
Hero
Nice find. I hadn't seen this.
You can now see how the 1D&D rules may have evolved from these alternate rules.
Corinnguard
Adventurer
It's certainly possible. I like the alternate Exhaustion rules in 5eSRD because it actually shows you what each level of Exhaustion is going to do your character if they push themselves too far. Ditto for the Fatigue and Strife tables in A5e.
Bill Zebub
“It’s probably Matt Mercer’s fault.”
No, I disagree here. In general I don’t think it’s a problem that sources of advantage and disadvantage cancel out, even if there’s more of one than the other. It’s one of those abstractions that some people feel don’t model reality in sufficient detail, but this one doesn’t (usually) cause paradoxes.
What’s weird in this particular case (e.g. fog cloud) is that it’s the same effect canceling itself, because of the way the rules about seeing and being seen are written.
