D&D (2024) Experienced DMs, how useful is the 2024 DMG to you?

Pathfinder and Tales of the Valiant would like to disagree on this. And sure, you can say because it's Paizo, a direct WotC competitor, but Call of Cthulhu has the Keeper Rulebook, which is their DMG. Drakkenheim series also follow this, and they're 5E (two books with a MM on the way).
The Keeper Rulebook is the core rulebook. Yes, there is an investigator's guide, but it's basically the inverse of how D&D does it. So I mean, I guess that makes you technically correct, but when people ask, "how do I play CoC?" the answer isn't, "well first, buy the Keeper's Guide and then the Investigator's Guide..." it's: "buy the Keeper's Guide. If your players want something, use the Investigator's Guide" (which is basically a copy of the rules from the Keeper's Guide, along with some 1920s setting information).

The rest of what you mentioned are all d20 games, which are heavily influenced by D&D. I also didn't say D&D was the sole TTRPG that did it, but that
Requiring a separate purchase for GM advice is exceedingly rare.
 

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D&D is the exception, not the rule, when it comes to requiring a separate purchase for DM advice.
Solely because the PHB, not the DMG, is such a shocking chonker because of exception-based design and an insanely giant number of classes and spells. All RPGs which rely on exception-based design tend to be larger and much more of them have DM's books than the rest of the industry.
It'd be like buying a car, (the PHB) and then being told, "if you want to know how the car works, the manual (DMG) is extra!"
Sure, but it's been that way for what, 45 years? Unless D&D dramatically reduces what's in the PHB and/or moves away from exception-based design, this can't change. PF2's solution is just to have an excessively and ridiculously gigantic book which contains both, which ain't great.
It also clearly doesn't need to exist (or at least, struggles with its existence), because it's the least used book in the trilogy.
Least used doesn't mean "doesn't need to exist". That's irrational. I worked in a legal library for years. Some of our least-used books were extremely important. It just means it shouldn't be expected to move as many copies.
I don't have data on this, but I wouldn't be surprised if a good chunk of, if not the majority, of Gen Z is learning to play via YouTube and Twitch playthroughs, supplemented by Google Searches.
Sure, in large part because the DMG 2014 was terrible lol.
edit: I should clarify point 1. most TTRPGs have the GM advice in the core rulebook. Call of Cthulhu, Savage Worlds, Genesys, Everywhen, ICRPG, the In Nominee books. Requiring a separate purchase for GM advice is exceedingly rare.
I've been running a wide variety of RPGs since 1989, you attempting to lecture me on this is not helpful nor informative. Especially as you don't seem to understand how exception-based design fits in here. I can explain if you don't know what that is, but I don't want to be annoying and explain it if you do know.
 

Solely because
I'm not going to go tit-for-tat on this, because I think this conversation has run its course.

A lot of what you're saying is:
  • well that's how it's always been done
  • D&D is big and complicated, so it has to be that way
  • People are learning D&D via YouTube/Twitch/Google because 2014's DMG is terrible
What I'm saying is:
  • it doesn't have to be this way
  • People are learning via YouTube/Twitch/Google because they are raised on the internet, not books, and that is how they get their information now
  • your response is assuming that 2024 DMG will be viewed in a better light. I'm betting not. It's still a nothingburger.
  • Exception-based design has nothing to do with why the DMG is bad

I've been running a wide variety of RPGs since 1989, you attempting to lecture me on this is not helpful nor informative. Especially as you don't seem to understand how exception-based design fits in here. I can explain if you don't know what that is.
I'm not trying to lecture you. I'm trying to have a conversation (where we just disagree), but I can tell it is frustrating you, so I'll back off. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
 
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Sure are lots of definitive statements that the DMG 2014 was awful.

Just want to say that I patently disagree with that sentiment. So do plenty of other people.
Yep, definitely not a universal sentiment. Cases in point:
 

your response is assuming that 2024 DMG will be viewed in a better light. I'm betting not. It's still a nothingburger.
It absolutely will be lol.

D&D is big and complicated, so it has to be that way
No.

Exception-based design means that you establish relatively simple general rules and then basically everything else is an exception to that. Like, every single spell in D&D works differently, has its own unique rules - they don't even have standardized spell slot progression or even really damage/area expectations. Every class has unique rules which deviate from the normal rules, and so on. This is distinct from Call of Cthulhu, for example, where basically everything is running off the same rules, with few fundamental exceptions.

D&D isn't actually very complicated. Most exception-based games aren't, that's the advantage - a player only needs to understand the rules which actually pertain to them, rather than a larger, more complex rules-set like they do with non-exception-based games. I would suggest it's easier to learn D&D than say, Shadowrun, which is not exception-based. But Shadowrun's total rules are lower - still, more are likely to need to be actually understood by a given player, and it will typically be experienced as being more complex.
 


Who's lecturing who now?
Did you already know what exception-based design is? If so all you had to do was say. But it appeared not.

I'm attempting to provide you with some information so you can argue from an informed position, rather than gatekeeping you because you didn't know a term used in RPG discussions.

(I'd have given a link but I couldn't find a good concise explanation on short notice - maybe that would have seemed less lecture-y.)
 

Solely because the PHB, not the DMG, is such a shocking chonker because of exception-based design and an insanely giant number of classes and spells. All RPGs which rely on exception-based design tend to be larger and much more of them have DM's books than the rest of the industry.
I really can't agree here after the 2010s and the long list of Powered By The Apocalypse systems. Which are absolutely exception based and tend to be fairly small. DM's books are a D&D thing so far as I can tell.
 


As far as I can recall, D&D has been an all-in-one book once, with the D&D Encyclopedia. Unfortunately, with as much content there is in "core" D&D I think there would be quite an uproar if they attempted to do an all-in-one book for 5E (or 6E), because it'd have to be chopped down unless you're willing to accept a D&D as lite as something like Old School Essentials (and even it only covers up to level 15). You'd only have to look back to 4E's three PHB release to see what sort of gnashing of teeth that'd create if anything got left out in mashing it into a single book.

Having a whole book dedicated to DMing is a luxury, and if you're going to carve out a portion of the game solely for the DM, it really needs to be usable for more than a one-time read. If they'd had space in the PHB to put the Bastion and Magic Items there, I don't think I'd have even bought the 2024 DMG.

I kinda question the 3-book model for D&D anymore. I think it's just kept around for tradition's sake, and get customers to spend more money. For me, it actually adds very little beyond referring back to it for the sections I mentioned above at this point.
 

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