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Falcon and winter solider

Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen". She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home. She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted". That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.
Assuming that Rogue was say 14 or 15 when she has her first kiss, she ran away and then spent time with the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, if we assume that was maybe 4 years she would be 18 or 19 when she seeks help from Dr X.
 
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billd91

Hobbit on Quest
Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen". She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home. She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted". That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.
Sure you do if you're talking about their history, particularly if the family is blended/found rather than by birth - as you get with Rogue and Mystique. Before Rogue joins the X-Men, she's in a story as an employee infiltrating the Pentagon. Even if she's in a secretarial pool/intern, that's still 18-19 at least. I can't think of a single story since Rogue debuts where she gives off any impression of being a minor - other than something explicitly flashback.
 

hopeless

Explorer
The Black Widow movie I believe is set between Civil War and Infinity War.
If and I do mean IF Ross secures that sample of the Russian Super Soldier Serum it would still need to be mentioned for it to be part of this series despite the above reply explaining its developer was snapped and upon his return managed to develop his version of the super soldier serum.
Regardless of the actual source does this mean he tested his serum on the Flag Smashers?
It sounds odd for them to steal his shipment unless they knew what it was as they had been guinea pigs?

Is that a possible explanation for the events in the series so far?
 

Staffan

Adventurer
Rogue's powers manifest when she's a "young teen". She kisses a boy, gets understandably freaked out, and runs away from home. She then takes up with Mystique - the term used in the comics is "adopted". That's not a term you normally use with an adult - so I find it hard to take her as 17+ at that point.
Sure, but that's some time before she debuts as a super-villain. At that point, Mystique has trained her and they have developed a familial relationship. Mystique thinks of Rogue as her daughter, not just another Brotherhood member – there are multiple occasions where Mystique risks things in order to protect Rogue, even after Rogue left. That's the kind of thing that takes an unspecified amount of time. After that, Rogue's first on-page appearance is perma-draining Carol Danvers' powers and then fighting the Avengers, and she's definitely not 15 in that comic. This is the first picture of her from 1981:
1617395288722.png


And this is her fighting the X-Men in 1982:

1617395501696.png


I did find a reference to her being 17 when she sought help from Professor X (which was in 1983), but I don't know how canonical that is. At that point she's definitely not younger than that, at least.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Hey, remember when this thread was about the tv show Falcon and the Winter Soldier? :)

To get back OT, I like Zemo in the 3rd episode. Similar to Kill Monger, he's not right....but he's kind of right. There are some great moments when he talks about what happens to Sokovia and looks Falcon and Bucky in the eye, effectively calling them out for not doing anything to clean up their mess. And....it appears that he's right, as they kind of silently take the beratement.

I will say though that we are apparently half way through this series....and it really doesn't feel like we have even gotten started (especially for the entire new thread that throw down at the very end of the episode!). It feels like there is a lot left to cover. I mean sure you can clean things up quickly, but I'm worried that's going to be underwhelming. If GoT final season taught us anything....take your freakin time! :)
 

Rabulias

Adventurer
And who is Sharon working for? Is she really not "on the run" and deep undercover instead? Or is she working for the Power Broker? Or a third party? Maybe she is the Power Broker?
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
The Black Widow movie I believe is set between Civil War and Infinity War.
If and I do mean IF Ross secures that sample of the Russian Super Soldier Serum it would still need to be mentioned for it to be part of this series despite the above reply explaining its developer was snapped and upon his return managed to develop his version of the super soldier serum.
Regardless of the actual source does this mean he tested his serum on the Flag Smashers?
It sounds odd for them to steal his shipment unless they knew what it was as they had been guinea pigs?

Is that a possible explanation for the events in the series so far?

So, Ross and the Russian stuff is not needed to explain anything in this series.

It is just: Nagel makes serum. He tests it, probably on Karli Morganthau - in Ep 3 she says she'd been in Madripoor after the Snap. She realizes with that power, she can make a difference. She gets some people together, steals Nagel's 20 doses. A few of them take it, and become the core of the Flag Smashers. The shipment we see, and have the fight around last episode, wasn't Nagel's. It was actually medical supplies for camps.

And who is Sharon working for? Is she really not "on the run" and deep undercover instead? Or is she working for the Power Broker? Or a third party? Maybe she is the Power Broker?

While it is possible they are doing something wild like that with Sharon, it is also just as likely that she's done as she says - she makes a lot of funds on the darker side of the art trade.
 

I don't think he is. He said he fought in Korea.

Yep, it is only a small forward jump in years from the comics version to the MCU version. I think it mainly means the secret experiments done to him and 300 other black men happened between WWII and the Korean War, instead of during WWII. I was reading the details on the comic book arc that Isaiah had when his books were published in the early 2000's, and wow, were they dark. Not only did almost none of the other soldiers survive, but the US government had everyone at the army camp, where the 300 came from, executed, so that there was no one left who could talk about it. For the MCU that is probably different if the experiments happened during peacetime, since there would not be a war to blame all the deaths on. Though the Korean War did start in 1950, so there is a gap before Isaiah was sent into Korea some time during 1951 to find and stop the Winter Soldier.
 

Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
Yep, it is only a small forward jump in years from the comics version to the MCU version. I think it mainly means the secret experiments done to him and 300 other black men happened between WWII and the Korean War, instead of during WWII. I was reading the details on the comic book arc that Isaiah had when his books were published in the early 2000's, and wow, were they dark.

Yeah, those comics are really dark, ugly stuff. In the MCU, at least, they can fall back on, "HYDRA did it!"
 



Tonguez

A suffusion of yellow
Yep, it is only a small forward jump in years from the comics version to the MCU version. I think it mainly means the secret experiments done to him and 300 other black men happened between WWII and the Korean War, instead of during WWII. I was reading the details on the comic book arc that Isaiah had when his books were published in the early 2000's, and wow, were they dark. Not only did almost none of the other soldiers survive, but the US government had everyone at the army camp, where the 300 came from, executed, so that there was no one left who could talk about it. For the MCU that is probably different if the experiments happened during peacetime, since there would not be a war to blame all the deaths on. Though the Korean War did start in 1950, so there is a gap before Isaiah was sent into Korea some time during 1951 to find and stop the Winter Soldier.
The Tuskagee Syphilis study that Isaiah Bradleys story was based on started in 1932 and continued until 1972, so no occuring in peacetime had very little bearing on the ethics of those involved. Somehow the Education Psychology degree I did had a section of a number of monstrously dodgy studies in health and psychology conducted in the early 20th century which now form part of modern development theory., its really quite eye opening.

I like how Marvel TV has decided to embrace that critical pedagogy as reflected in the conversation on Zemos plane questioning the whole concept of Hero and the role of the Avengers in the world. Such a intellectual deep conversation is more notable when couched inside the 'action adventure' genre expectations. The writers handled that really quite masterfully while remaining true to the comic book nature of the story and its 'unlikely' team-up and cameos.

My only real complaint about the episode was the lack of SE Asian cast in the Madripoor scenes, its called out as an Island in the Indonesian Archipelago but apparently its entirely inhabited by white gangsters and black bar staff. It might not have been as much of an issue if race wasnt an important theme in the show...
 

From what I hear the Black Widow movie is set in the 1980s. Whatever, a hypothetical Russian supersoldier serum is unconnected to these events.

1930s: Erskine experiments on Red Skull. Zola assists?
1943: Erskine experiments on Steve Rogers. Erskine is killed and most of the original serum destroyed.
1944: Zola experiments on Bucky, using his knowledge of Erskine's experiments on Red Skull.
1950s: CIA and Zola (under Operation Paperclip) experiment on black American servicemen using Erskine's notes and samples of Rogers' blood. Isaiah is the only success?
1960s-blip: CIA continue to experiment on Isaiah. Towards the end of this period Nagel is on the edge of success.
blip-: Nagel completes his serum for the Power Broker, tests it on Karli. Karli steals the existing doses. Nagel is working on creating more doses when he is shot by Zemo and his lab destroyed.
 

While it is possible they are doing something wild like that with Sharon, it is also just as likely that she's done as she says - she makes a lot of funds on the darker side of the art trade.
The last scene, where Sharon gets into a car with a dark-haired woman, very heavily implies she is working for someone, and "on the run" was just a cover story.

My guess would be either the CIA or British Intelligence. Or she is a skrull.
 
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DeviousQuail

Explorer
The pacing in episode 3 felt off compared to the first two. It was like they had one-and-a-half or two episodes worth of material and forced it into one. It certainly had it's cool and fun moments but overall I'd say it was the weakest so far (an admittedly small sample). Also, I'm having a hard time sympathizing with the flag smashers because it's all tell with very little show. Maybe if we saw these camps or footage of the displaced protesting. Anything to give us a better idea of how bad things are. Between this show, wandavision, and far from home things look pretty great considering how awful and confusing the last 6-8 months should have been.

The good stuff:
-Nice of you to join the party Sharon. Now if only we knew whose side you're on.
-Zemo does not pull his punches when conversing with F/WS.
-Madripoor was awesome. Will it replace Sokovia as the next big fictional place for Bad Things to happen in?
-A little bit more about the GRC and blip but not much.
-Wakanda doesn't forget and they sure don't seem interested in forgiving.
 

Stalker0

Legend
Anything to give us a better idea of how bad things are. Between this show, wandavision, and far from home things look pretty great considering how awful and confusing the last 6-8 months should have been.
Amen, the apocalypse happens and its like everything is hunky dorey again, other than the occasional terriorist threat to stop, basic services all seem completely intact. To put it in context, the Soviet Union lost 15%-20% of its population during WWII....and that was an insane amount of casualties, much higher than other countries.

But that is just an ok couple of years compared to losing 50%!!!!!

Entire industries would collapse under such a loss, infrastructure begins to crumble, not to mention the mass hysteria such an event would have caused (I'm not a religious man but if I had seen that happen I would definitely think its the rapture).
 

MarkB

Legend
We had two somewhat re-imagined versions of characters in this episode, first Zemo and then Sharon.

I felt like Baron Zemo was slightly the more realistic. His portrayal in Civil War never hinted at any significant degree of wealth, nor any particularly strong expertise on Hydra aside from his general espionage background having given him sufficient context to better understand the information on them that Black Widow had dumped to the internet. But this version of him doesn't straight-up contradict anything in the movie, and it does make him a more enjoyable character in the antihero role.

Sharon, on the other hand, I find harder to believe ending up as a cynical criminal, for one reason. While I can buy that Sam didn't get around to calling her at any time since Civil War, no way do I buy that Steve Rogers left her to take the fall. He respected her as a colleague, cared for her as a relative of Peggy Carter, and there was the beginning of a romance between them. There's just no way he'd have gotten all his superpowered allies from those events back to safety and freedom without doing his utmost to do the same for her.

That said, if we assume that those efforts all failed, this is an interesting development for the character. And yes, I'd bet that either she is the Power Broker, or she's on track to take over that role by the end of the series.
 


Umbran

Mod Squad
Staff member
I was under the impression he was the first, the prototype before Steve. But that may have been from the comics.

No. If nothing else, while Marvel and Disney are willing to confront racism, they are not willing to tarnish Captain America himself in that way. Isaiah is the result of trying to re-create Cap.

From what I hear the Black Widow movie is set in the 1980s.

That would mean Natasha Romanov, an adult in the movie, would now be in her 60s. The Black Widow movie is set between Civil War and Infinity War.

1930s: Erskine experiments on Red Skull. Zola assists?
1943: Erskine experiments on Steve Rogers. Erskine is killed and most of the original serum destroyed.
1944: Zola experiments on Bucky, using his knowledge of Erskine's experiments on Red Skull.
1950s: CIA and Zola (under Operation Paperclip) experiment on black American servicemen using Erskine's notes and samples of Rogers' blood. Isaiah is the only success?

Captain America is created in 1942/43.

Zola got captured by Cap and the Howling Commandos, but Bucky falls from the train in that same operation. Zola is in Allied hands from that point forward, while the Russians have Bucky.

Zola probably wouldn't have a chance to be involved until much later, if at all, after the creation of SHIELD, and its infiltration by HYRDA. And even then, it probably wasn't Zola personally experimenting on Bucky - HYDRA infiltrated SHIELD, but I doubt that went so far as an American asset (Zola) actually going to work in Russia. Even in the modern day, HYDRA had to work at keeping itself secret. That would have been rather blatant.

Isaiah says he was imprisoned for 30 years. That's 50s to 80s, or 60s to 90s. The Blip is 2010s.
 

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