fast spell question

[wujenta]

Hi everyone

Im playing a bard and is now level 14 and one of my fellow adventurers is a wizard who likes a lot sonic fireballs (he has the energy substitution feat), I cant remember when was the last time I see a "normal" fireball. So, I choose as my fifth level spell shadow evocation. Last sesion I cast a shadow evocation as a sonic fireball and my DM allowed it, but 2 days after my DM was not sure if he will allow it another time. He thinks that at least I have to had the energy substitution feat (wich I dont have ).

I understand his point of view, but I would like to know what you think about it. And related to that, can you cast an empowered scorching ray with a shadow evocation? It is a second level spell and with the metamagic feat is a fourth level, the maximum permited by a shadow evocation.

 

[Li Shenron]

By thumb, I agree with your DM.

These Shadow spells use some parameters from the duplicated spells (range, duration, area, saving throws type) and some other parameters from themselves (DC, SR and extra ST to disbelieve). I am not sure of the spell level to be honest, for example I am not sure if a duplicated Magic Missile would bypass Minor Globe of Invulnerability because the shadow spell is level 5 or it wouldn't bypass because MM is level 1.

But I really think that if you apply a metamagic feat on the duplicated spell you need to increase the shadow spell's level, and therefore to have the feat yourself. For example, you can quicken a Shadow Evocation but that would make you use a 9th level slot, you can't duplicate a quickened cantrip, although this metamagic could be a special case.

 

[FrankTrollman]

OK, the rules aren't clear on this point.

What it says is that you can duplicate a 4th level Wizard Spell. What it does not say, and this is really important, is what the hell that is supposed to mean:

1> Does it mean a spell which could be placed into a 4th level spell slot by a Wizard? That would include sonic substituted fireballs.

2> Does it mean a spell which could be placed into a 4th level spell slot by any Wizard? That would include sonic substituted fireballs, and also Chaos Hammer, as Wizards can get access to the Prestige Domain of Chaos and cast Chaos Hammer as a Wizard Spell.

3> Does it mean a spell which is 4th level and in the Player's Handbook? That would not include sonic substituted fireballs. It also wouldn't include any of the stuff from Skip Hates Sorcerers or other splat books.

4> Does it mean a spell which has been placed into a 4th level spell slot by a Wizard? That would include sonic substituted fireballs, and as soon as Gregori the Wizard invents Gregori's Mindful Clamoring - he'll recieve congratulatory letters from every Illusionist in the campaign world the next day.

5> Does it mean a spell which has been placed into a 4th level spell slot by a Wizard that the caster knows about? That would include sonic substituted fireballs in this case only because you watch your friend do them - and pretty much renders the spell into complete garbage that I wouldn't bend over to pick up.

6>Does it mean a spell which could be placed into a 4th level spell slot by a hypothetical Wizard? That would include sonic substituted fireballs, and also include Gregori's Mindful Clamoring (or something just like it) even though he hasn't actually written it yet.

etc.

There are lots of possible interpretations of Shadow Magic. It could be anything from a spell effect which is appropriate for the level to a spell the caster has already seen and it doesn't bother to explain ever.

Personally, I've never been in a game where people weren't allowed to cast Sonic Substituted Fireballs - after all you could just put Sonicball into your spellbook in the first place.

-Frank

 

[Li Shenron]

Also, Shadow spells are not very powerful but definitely very versatile. They dont' need to be made even more versatile to allow metamagicking spells on the fly for just one level higher.

 

[Oni]

By thumb, I agree with your DM.

These Shadow spells use some parameters from the duplicated spells (range, duration, area, saving throws type) and some other parameters from themselves (DC, SR and extra ST to disbelieve). I am not sure of the spell level to be honest, for example I am not sure if a duplicated Magic Missile would bypass Minor Globe of Invulnerability because the shadow spell is level 5 or it wouldn't bypass because MM is level 1.

Based on the precedent that a spell cast via limited wish has the spell level of limited wish I'd say that it would bypass MGoI.

I'd cite, but I'm not sure where to find it. However I am certain I've seen it.


Personally I would read it as not being able to Shadow Evocation being able to cast any appropriate spell off of the sor/wiz list unaltered. Metamagic variations aren't spells on that list, they're something that only people with the appropriate feats can pull off. The only way to metamagic shadow evocations is by applying a metamagic feat directly to the casting of Shadow Evocation thus raising the level spell slot necessary to cast it.

That is my interpretation anyway.

 

[Pyrex]

Why? The entire purpose of Shadow Evocation and it's kin is to sacrifice effectiveness for flexibility. Not only does a shadow spell use up a higher level slot than the spell it's replicating, but also allows an additional save as the duplicate is mostly illusory.

Even if the caster of Shadow Evocation has never seen someone cast a Lightning Bolt there's no reason they shouldn't be able to replicate a similar effect with Shadow Evocation. Whether or not Cold Substituted-Bolt is a distinct spell in it's own right shouldn't prevent someone from using Shadow Evocation to create a similar effect.

To put it another way, why should Shadow Evocation suddenly get better every time WotC publishes a new sourcebook? If you decide that shadow spells can only duplicate "published" spells, what really makes a "published" spell different from a hypothetical spell they just haven't gotten around to publishing yet?

 

[FrankTrollman]

f you decide that shadow spells can only duplicate "published" spells, what really makes a "published" spell different from a hypothetical spell they just haven't gotten around to publishing yet?

Nothing - but some people do play that way. And since the rules don't actually say, and never have in any edition of the game - I can't exactly say that they are factually incorrect to play that way.

Personally, I see nothing different between a published spell that hasn't been used in the game yet, a spell that hasn't been researched yet (but could be based upon falling within the appropriate power/level criteria), a spell constructed out of metamagic feats from lower level spells, and a "regular" spell from the player's handbook. But some people do, and the rules don't say.

-Frank

 

[jgsugden]

The rules are incomplete (surprise, surprise), so the DM is left to his own devices to figure this spell out. It sounds like your DM thought about the situation and came to a decision. Regardless of what we say, your DM is right.

The spell should not be too versatile. If the spell is too versatile, the caster can take advantage of any weakness of a foe and exploit it. The power lost to gain versatility is overcompensated by being able to hit a weakness on every foe. As a result, the versatility increases the power of the spell beyond a reasonable level and the spell becomes unbalanced.

In my games, I allow the caster to duplicate any appropriate PHB spell as written or any spell with which he has familiarity. This includes metamagiced versions of PHB spells. So, in my game, your bard would be able to do a sonic fireball because he has seen them a few times, but he would be unable to do an acid fireball unless he has seen it a few times as well. Of course, in my games I have ruled that energy substitution (sonic) reduces the damage by half as too few creatures have sonic resistance (thus the massive number of PCs with ES: sonic).

 

[FrankTrollman]

The power lost to gain versatility is overcompensated by being able to hit a weakness on every foe.

Most foes don't have specific weaknesses, however.

The only creatures which have any real "weaknesses" like that are fire and ice creatures - so once you have a Fireball and a Frost Burst prepared you are pretty much ready for anything as far as that goes.

If every creature took double damage from something - and you knew what all of those things were - that would be true. But they don't and it's not.

-Frank

 

[Li Shenron]

Does anybody know which is the result of a spellcraft check against a Shadow Evocation for example? Does it register as "Illusion" or as "Evocation"?