Feat bonus stacking question

[Elarid]

Do the paragon feats "Shield Specialization (+1 ref/AC with shield)", "Plate specialization (+1 AC with plate)" and "Lightning reflexes (+2 ref)" stack? I know feat bonuses shouldn't usually stack, but does the fact that they improve the bonus granted by something else matter?

Thanks!

 

[DracoSuave]

They do not improve another bonus. They give you a bonus while a condition applies, and that bonus is a named 'feat bonus.'

So Shield Spec. does not stack with Armor Spec. or Lightning Reflexes.

Howeverin Lightning Ref gives a +2 bonus and most of the Armor Specs give something on top of the +1 to AC.

Tho, to be fair, Plate Spec is crap.

 

[Rafe]

Personally, I think it's a bit ridiculous. The Armor Spec (Plate) should stack with Shield Spec. Shield Spec should simply be +1 bonus and Armor Spec (Plate) ought to be +1 feat bonus. It's nice for a defensive Fighter or Paladin to be able to go such a route if they choose.

 

[FireLance]

Personally, I think it's a bit ridiculous. The Armor Spec (Plate) should stack with Shield Spec. Shield Spec should simply be +1 bonus and Armor Spec (Plate) ought to be +1 feat bonus. It's nice for a defensive Fighter or Paladin to be able to go such a route if they choose.

I think these could be good ideas for Epic feats, but they might be too good at Paragon level.

 

[Rafe]

I think these could be good ideas for Epic feats, but they might be too good at Paragon level.

Possibly. I'd argue it isn't too good; not when you consider attribute boosts at levels 11, 14 and 18. Putting those into Int or Dex for those in light or no armour means they're getting better bonuses over time than those in Medium or Heavy armours. It's nice to have the option to boost AC without simply upgrading gear. Spending the feats for it isn't overly powerful by comparison. For a Fighter, that means three feats: Armor Prof (Plate) taken at Heroic tier and Armor Spec (Plate) and Shield Spec taken at Paragon tier. It's opportunity cost: if they spend their feats on those, they lose out on spending them on other ones.

Let's use the example of a Fighter and Rogue, both with +3 Armor at level 16:

Fighter, AC 33: +8 for half level, + 12 for +3 plate + feat, +3 for shield + feat.
Rogue, AC 29: +8 for half level, +6 Dex, +5 for +3 leather.

That seems about right to me, given the roles and the focus the Fighter wants (ie, defensive vs. offensive build). That's with the Rogue not having to use any feats, so I don't think it's unfair. Without the feats, it's AC 31 vs. 29.

Thoughts?

 

[Turtlejay]

There are a lot of other odd holes with feat stacking. I just made a fourth level rogue who took as his three feats:
Weapon Proficiency (parrying dagger)
Two Weapon Fighting
Two Weapon Defense

The parrying dagger is a defending weapon, so when wielded off hand it gives a +1 untyped AC bonus. Two weapon Defense gives a +1 shield bonus to AC and Reflex. To my mind those shouldn't stack.

This rogue happens to be a razorclaw shifter, and his encounter power, gives +1 to AC and Reflex for the remainder of the encounter. This is another untyped bonus.

This rogue's AC is high. Very high.

Jay

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Keep in mind the special materials for armor, especially if you have Adventurer's Vault. The idea is supposed to be that ALL armor of a certain enhancement is made of special materials. That being the case, the heavy armors go up in AC faster than the light armors in order to make up for the fact that people wearing light armor are getting increases to their AC due to stat points put into Int/Dex and the heavy armor wearers are not.

As for the stacking of stuff, a rogue wearing leather armor with two weapon defense and a parrying dagger with a 20 dex has 19 AC. Which is good, but it isn't overwhelming. Even with the shifter power, it ups it to 20. Which is the same thing a paladin gets simply by using a heavy shield and full plate without any feats.

 

[DracoSuave]

Thing is, the non-plate specs give you something other than a bonus.

Hide and Chain spec remove your armor check penalties as well as increases your AC by 1.
Scale removes your speed penalty as well as increases your AC by 1.
Shield spec increases your Reflexes as well as increases your AC by 1.

These three feats are already balanced towards each other. AC +1, and an additional bonus.

Plate only increases your AC by 1, but if you're a two-handed paladin build, this is your only option to increase your AC. But then, you're -not- a high-defense build so you're not too torn about that anyways.

You shouldn't be getting huge AC by feats, beyond upgrading your proficiencies.


Besides, the idea that heavy armor is somehow supposed to be automagicly better than light armor is fallacious. Heavy armor is what allows non-dex builds to have good AC. It's not supposed to be better.

 

[Rafe]

Thing is, the non-plate specs give you something other than a bonus.

Hide and Chain spec remove your armor check penalties as well as increases your AC by 1.
Scale removes your speed penalty as well as increases your AC by 1.
Shield spec increases your Reflexes as well as increases your AC by 1.

These three feats are already balanced towards each other. AC +1, and an additional bonus.

Plate only increases your AC by 1

True. That's a problem. However, it may have been done that way to even out the fact that Plate already provides a higher AC? Not sure what the thinking was there. Just tossing out an idea. I think a good idea would be to reduce forced movement by 1 square in addition to the + 1 AC with the paragon path Plate spec feat. That's what I'd houserule in my games. (Stacks with the Dwarven Stand Your Ground racial thinger.)

Besides, the idea that heavy armor is somehow supposed to be automagicly better than light armor is fallacious. Heavy armor is what allows non-dex builds to have good AC. It's not supposed to be better.

Personally, I think it ought to be. Those with Plate are the ones who want the attention on them. That doesn't mean they always have the attention, but the two classes with easy access to Plate (Paladin and Fighter) can both mark. I'd feel pretty gyp'd if I was a shield/sword Fighter with Plate who spent 3 feats to beef myself up defensively only to be at the same AC as a Rogue or Ranger who used zero feats and... well... aren't Defenders.

All that said, when 4e was announced, I was hoping to see armor as DR in 4e, a la Iron Heroes. However, I know that a straight-forward, static, "hit-or-miss" AC makes things a bit faster and allows combat to run smoother. Still... would have been interesting to see how that'd have worked.

 

[ValhallaGH]

However, I know that a straight-forward, static, "hit-or-miss" AC makes things a bit faster and allows combat to run smoother. Still... would have been interesting to see how that'd have worked.

According to Mike Mearls, it didn't. Work, that is. Having armor as DR made meaningful calculations of damage impossible; similarly, having PC natural armor made meaningful calculations of AC impossible. Estimates were possible, but there became too many variables for something less than advanced calculus to generate probabilities. At that point, rules become pure art and guesswork for 99.5% of tables, and probably for a lot of the professional rules developers.