CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
Cloudgatherer said:
+2 hit, -2 AC?
Feats for Finesse Fighters
+2 hit, -2 AC?
CRGreathouse: Originally the Finesse Specialization feat had the prereq you recommended: STR 13+, BAB +1, Proficient with weapon. After I made Natural Finesse and gave it a prereq of STR 13+, I changed that Finesse Spc. prereq to STR 15+...I figured you need the extra muscle for better coordination~ But it's your campaign do what you think fits best! 
Regarding Natural Finesse...the feat was more like, you either have it at first level or you don't. Like a talent that you are born with and can't train for. I just didn't enforce that with mechanics 'cause my PCs weren't too into finesse.
I also think Cloudgatherer meant +2 to hit and -2 to AC...
Cloudgatherer: Nice feats! I didn't know the Whirlwind Charge feat that I stole from Eric's board was yours.
Regarding Natural Finesse...the feat was more like, you either have it at first level or you don't. Like a talent that you are born with and can't train for. I just didn't enforce that with mechanics 'cause my PCs weren't too into finesse.
I also think Cloudgatherer meant +2 to hit and -2 to AC...
Cloudgatherer: Nice feats! I didn't know the Whirlwind Charge feat that I stole from Eric's board was yours.
Darklone
Registered User
huih
Well that whirlwind charge is tough... very tough. It's effective as hell if you got good AC and gives well armoured guys a chance to move fast and far and hit more guys as they would with whirlwind... depending on their dex. But Mobility helps too ... I think it's rather strong. Too strong. Perhaps make it only possible with light armours? That's not really a disadvantage though considering all those high magical armours and equipment most guys have ...
Well that whirlwind charge is tough... very tough. It's effective as hell if you got good AC and gives well armoured guys a chance to move fast and far and hit more guys as they would with whirlwind... depending on their dex. But Mobility helps too ... I think it's rather strong. Too strong. Perhaps make it only possible with light armours? That's not really a disadvantage though considering all those high magical armours and equipment most guys have ...
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Heh, I had lost track of this thread.
Yes, I did design whirlwind charge. I've had it for a for over 6 months now and posted it here for feedback. I've used it in game a couple of times, and works pretty much how I expected it to, not terribly powerful but useful for hitting adjacent targets when executing a charge (and they get to hit you too).
The modifiers are +2 to hit and +2 to AC due to the mobility feat (-2 AC for charging, +4 AC for mobility). So it's factored in since it is a prerequisite.
I had considered the WWC feat to be strong, but if you try it out, a fighter is essentially "trading blows". He'll get an attack, but must also take one (the AoO) from everyone he attacks. Using this against stronger opponents could potentially kill the fighter if he gets too greedy with his attacks. The situation boils down to, does the fighter feel lucky?
Later!
Yes, I did design whirlwind charge. I've had it for a for over 6 months now and posted it here for feedback. I've used it in game a couple of times, and works pretty much how I expected it to, not terribly powerful but useful for hitting adjacent targets when executing a charge (and they get to hit you too).
The modifiers are +2 to hit and +2 to AC due to the mobility feat (-2 AC for charging, +4 AC for mobility). So it's factored in since it is a prerequisite.
I had considered the WWC feat to be strong, but if you try it out, a fighter is essentially "trading blows". He'll get an attack, but must also take one (the AoO) from everyone he attacks. Using this against stronger opponents could potentially kill the fighter if he gets too greedy with his attacks. The situation boils down to, does the fighter feel lucky?
Later!
Cloudgatherer
First Post
Finesse Specialization: Instead of having a feat that would allow finesse, I'd prefer a feat with higher requirements (feat chain maybe) and allows someone to weild a single weapon "like" it was affected by Weapon Finesse.
Natural Finesse: This is pretty powerful, even for not getting a Str bonus to damage (although you should not Str penalties still count). Most people who take Weapon Finesse don't have a high Str, so not much to give up here (unless Bull's Strength or belts of giant strength are added to the mix).
Tumbling Pass: A definite "no". I can picture the rogue now, moving about the battlefield sneak attacking everyone he can get to in 20 feet. Take away sneak attack and I still have a problem with the character attacking and moving about in between without drawbacks. That's kind of why I made WWC limiting, it can be powerful under the right circumstances, but it's not something to use all the time.
Natural Finesse: This is pretty powerful, even for not getting a Str bonus to damage (although you should not Str penalties still count). Most people who take Weapon Finesse don't have a high Str, so not much to give up here (unless Bull's Strength or belts of giant strength are added to the mix).
Tumbling Pass: A definite "no". I can picture the rogue now, moving about the battlefield sneak attacking everyone he can get to in 20 feet. Take away sneak attack and I still have a problem with the character attacking and moving about in between without drawbacks. That's kind of why I made WWC limiting, it can be powerful under the right circumstances, but it's not something to use all the time.
CRGreathouse
Community Supporter
You shouldn't include the bonus from Mobility, because it doesn't always apply - the penalty to AClasts for a full round, and the Mobility bonus only applies when moving through a threatended area.
It is powerful in the sense that you sacrifice at least one point of damage (from strength prerequisite) in order to finesse all weapons. The only drawback is as you've mentioned, the inability to use strength enhancing equipment or spells (although this in itself can be pretty disadvantageous). I've made this feat so that this can open a way for those finesse types that do not benefit much from WotC's emphasis on strength in combat. YMMV.
Originally this feat was limited to 10 feet. After looking at extreme tumbling from OA which allows you to tumble up to 10 feet and full attack, I bumped up the ability. Though, 20 feet of tumbling won't get you far away from your foes and the rogue doing this to a group of monsters will be mince meat if he doesn't drop them in that round.
Again YMM of course varry. 
Arcane Runes Press
First Post
My 2 cents:
1) The requirements for natural finesse are shaky.
For Fighters:
A) A fighter with a 13 or, especially, more Str is better off just using Weapon Finesse, since Str damage with 1 weapon is better than Dex bonus with many. Most fighters end up with Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus anyway, so they are going to end up concentrating on one weapon and the rest are going to fall by the wayside.
B) Depending on how stats are decided (point buy, 4d6) most fighters can ill afford a 13+ Wis. They are, of course, better off with Con and Dex bonus. Even a high Int is usually more valuable, adding needed skill points, required for Expertise and, more importantly, adding AC to the Duelist, a class tailor made for the finesse warrior.
For Rogues and Monks:
A) The feat seems tailored towards the Rogue (traditionally high Dex and who have many important skills linked to Wisdom) and, especially, the Monk (high Dexterity and Wisdom essential). But, Str is usually a low priority for Rogues, especially when it will be of literally no use with this feat. Monks with unarmed attacks will also see diminished returns with the feat (though they are better off than the Rogue) as unarmed blows, their most common attacks, will only have a damage bonus with a 14+ Str.
B) Monks don't have off-hands with their unarmed attacks, and only rarely with their special monk weapon attacks, so the 1/4 Str to off hand attacks won't mean much. Not a big concern, but the feat description does seem pointed towards them, so....
C) Most importantly, neither Monks or Rogues have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.
2) Tumbling Pass.
Too much in my opinion. Yes, the requirements are high, but nothing that an average monk or, especially, rogue won't have at 12th level. Here's the real problem I see:
A) Typical 12th level adventuring Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). Fighter engaged with a big bad guy, Wizard and Cleric casting spells and so on. Normal Rogue tactics, tumble in and make one sneak attack. Next round hope the bad guy doesn't kill you, sneak attack once and tumble away or, if you feel lucky, full sneak attack. Next round, if you've tumbled away, you are only going to get 1 sneak attack. If you didn't tumble away, you are probably bleeding on the floor.
-Vs-
Typical 12th level adventuring Rogue with Tumbling Pass and armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). Fighter engaged with a big bad guy, Wizard and Cleric casting spells and so on. New Rogue tactics, tumble in and make one sneak attack. Next round, hope the bad guy doesn't kill you, then full sneak attack and tumble 10' away. If the bad guy follows you, the fighter gets an AoO and the enemy gets only one attack. If he doesn't follow you, the next round you tumble in, full sneak attack and then tumble back out to the same distance, gaining a great deal of damage immunity.
B) Typical 12th level Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). His opponents are the same. Rogue wins initiative. Round one, he tumbles past the front line fighters and gets a single sneak attack against the Wizard. Wizard likely seriously injured. Remainder of round one, Rogue pounded into bloody mess.
-VS-
Typical 12th level Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). His opponents are the same. Rogue wins initiative. Round one, he tumbles past the front line fighters and full sneak attacks the Wizard. Wizard DEAD, 95% guaranteed. Remainder of round one, Rogue pounded into bloody mess, but has a better chance of survival since the enemy wizard is too busy hemoraging to fight.
C) Hasting makes it much worse. Normal Rogue tumbles in 20', uses a full sneak attack and that's it. He's stuck til next round.
-VS-
Rogue tumbles in 20', uses a full sneak attack, then uses the partial action to do a normal 20' tumble away. Enemy has to chase him, losing any multiple attacks it might have. Rogue gains serious damage immunity.
1) The requirements for natural finesse are shaky.
For Fighters:
A) A fighter with a 13 or, especially, more Str is better off just using Weapon Finesse, since Str damage with 1 weapon is better than Dex bonus with many. Most fighters end up with Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus anyway, so they are going to end up concentrating on one weapon and the rest are going to fall by the wayside.
B) Depending on how stats are decided (point buy, 4d6) most fighters can ill afford a 13+ Wis. They are, of course, better off with Con and Dex bonus. Even a high Int is usually more valuable, adding needed skill points, required for Expertise and, more importantly, adding AC to the Duelist, a class tailor made for the finesse warrior.
For Rogues and Monks:
A) The feat seems tailored towards the Rogue (traditionally high Dex and who have many important skills linked to Wisdom) and, especially, the Monk (high Dexterity and Wisdom essential). But, Str is usually a low priority for Rogues, especially when it will be of literally no use with this feat. Monks with unarmed attacks will also see diminished returns with the feat (though they are better off than the Rogue) as unarmed blows, their most common attacks, will only have a damage bonus with a 14+ Str.
B) Monks don't have off-hands with their unarmed attacks, and only rarely with their special monk weapon attacks, so the 1/4 Str to off hand attacks won't mean much. Not a big concern, but the feat description does seem pointed towards them, so....
C) Most importantly, neither Monks or Rogues have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.
2) Tumbling Pass.
Too much in my opinion. Yes, the requirements are high, but nothing that an average monk or, especially, rogue won't have at 12th level. Here's the real problem I see:
A) Typical 12th level adventuring Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). Fighter engaged with a big bad guy, Wizard and Cleric casting spells and so on. Normal Rogue tactics, tumble in and make one sneak attack. Next round hope the bad guy doesn't kill you, sneak attack once and tumble away or, if you feel lucky, full sneak attack. Next round, if you've tumbled away, you are only going to get 1 sneak attack. If you didn't tumble away, you are probably bleeding on the floor.
-Vs-
Typical 12th level adventuring Rogue with Tumbling Pass and armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). Fighter engaged with a big bad guy, Wizard and Cleric casting spells and so on. New Rogue tactics, tumble in and make one sneak attack. Next round, hope the bad guy doesn't kill you, then full sneak attack and tumble 10' away. If the bad guy follows you, the fighter gets an AoO and the enemy gets only one attack. If he doesn't follow you, the next round you tumble in, full sneak attack and then tumble back out to the same distance, gaining a great deal of damage immunity.
B) Typical 12th level Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). His opponents are the same. Rogue wins initiative. Round one, he tumbles past the front line fighters and gets a single sneak attack against the Wizard. Wizard likely seriously injured. Remainder of round one, Rogue pounded into bloody mess.
-VS-
Typical 12th level Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). His opponents are the same. Rogue wins initiative. Round one, he tumbles past the front line fighters and full sneak attacks the Wizard. Wizard DEAD, 95% guaranteed. Remainder of round one, Rogue pounded into bloody mess, but has a better chance of survival since the enemy wizard is too busy hemoraging to fight.
C) Hasting makes it much worse. Normal Rogue tumbles in 20', uses a full sneak attack and that's it. He's stuck til next round.
-VS-
Rogue tumbles in 20', uses a full sneak attack, then uses the partial action to do a normal 20' tumble away. Enemy has to chase him, losing any multiple attacks it might have. Rogue gains serious damage immunity.
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