Feats for Finesse Fighters

[Ruvion]

Tell me what you think of these feats:

Finesse Specialization [General, Regional]:
Even large and seemingly ungainly weapons become like extensions of your arm.
Benefit: Allows you to Weapon Finesse or Natural Finesse any melee weapons that are the same size category as your body size. You can also Weapon Finesse or Natural Finesse "double weapons" or "finesseable weapons" that are one size larger than your body size. Bulky and weighty weapons (ie: axe, hammer, etc) are not suitable for finesse. This feat should not be confused with Weapon Finesse feat or Natural Finesse feat: For example, you must take a Weapon Finesse (long sword) feat in addition to a Finesse Specialization feat in order to use long swords with finesse.
Prerequisites: STR 15+, Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficient with weapon.

Natural Finesse [General, Fighter]:
You are gifted with a natural ability to handle many melee weapons with finesse.
Benefit: Taking this feat allows you to use all weapons that you are allowed to finesse (ie: unarmed attack, light weapons, rapiers, spike chain, etc) and are proficient in with, as if you had the Weapon Finesse feat for all of them. However, you do not apply Strength bonus to damage to your attacks when using this fighting style (even two-handed weapons do not gain any Strength bonus when used with this feat). Should not be confused with the Weapon Finesse feat, with which you can apply Strength bonus to damage to one finesseable weapon. The Natural Finesse style is compatible with the Finesse Specialization feat.
Special: When using specialized melee weapons or natural weapons (ie: unarmed attack, claws, bite, ki weapons, etc), you apply one-half your Strength bonus to damage on your primary hand (and half of the reduced Strength bonus on your off-hand attack, if fighting with two specialized weapons as per normal two-weapon fighting rules).
Prerequisites: STR 13+, WIS 13+, Base Attack Bonus +1, Proficient with all simple and martial weapons.

Tumbling Pass [General, Regional]:
You are a master of the acrobatic fighting style.
Benefit: When using the full attack action with finessed or light weapons, you can tumble up to 20 feet (with a successful tumble check) before, after, or between your attacks (in a permutation of a "tumble--full attack--tumble" sequence). Only one tumble check is needed as per tumbling rules, but if you fail the tumble check by 5 or more, you are allotted a movement of 10 feet instead of 20 feet and suffer attacks of opportunity. If you fail the Tumble check by 10 or more, you are not allotted any movement and suffer attacks of opportunity.
Special: You do not get a 5-foot step during the round when using Tumbling Pass unless hasted. When hasted, you get one 5-foot step or a regular move when using Tumbling Pass.
Prerequisites: Jump +15, Tumble +15, Spring Attack, Proficient with finessed or light weapon.

 

[Darklone]

Tumbling pass...

Hmm. Don't like it. Tumbling Pass effectively allows you to move while using the full attack option. PLUS tumbling. That way you run in without AoOs, whirlwind attack, second whirlwind if you got the right weapon, tumble out (no AoOs) and that's it. I think it's wayyy too strong for a feat. Especially for a feat with mostly the same prerequisites as whirlwind attack.

Natural Finesse: Horribly strong for high dex guys like halflings with no Str bonus. Too powerful for a certain group of guys and useless for most of the others.

Finesse specialization: Effectively allows to finesse ALL weapons. Plus you still add your STR bonus to damage. With ridiculous easy prerequisites. This higly favours elves and similar high dex monsters. Add Power Attack and you got hell on earth. Example: Elven Fighter with Str15 and Dex20 (not THAT much... that's possible with most point buy systems too). You got +6 to hit at lvl1. With a greatsword. Well. A halforc with Str20 or a human with Str18 and Weapon Focus will do this too (with more damage), but none of them will have the high dex for ranged attacks and AC. This feat is not that unbalanced, but I still consider it as VERY strong.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, with 25 Points you will not often have a 20(18) and a 15, but most out there seem to play with more points, if at all...

And if I have Strength 15, why should I burn feats for Finessing weapons?
(Hey, my Ranger/Fighter has only Strength & Dexterity of 14 ...
That`s low and it hurts, yes.)

Mustrum Ridcully

 

[Ruvion]

Originally posted by Darklone
Finesse specialization: Effectively allows to finesse ALL weapons. Plus you still add your STR bonus to damage. With ridiculous easy prerequisites. This higly favours elves and similar high dex monsters. Add Power Attack and you got hell on earth. Example: Elven Fighter with Str15 and Dex20 (not THAT much... that's possible with most point buy systems too). You got +6 to hit at lvl1. With a greatsword. Well. A halforc with Str20 or a human with Str18 and Weapon Focus will do this too (with more damage), but none of them will have the high dex for ranged attacks and AC. This feat is not that unbalanced, but I still consider it as VERY strong.

See the following reasoning....

Originally posted by Mustrum_Ridcully
...And if I have Strength 15, why should I burn feats for Finessing weapons?

I think Mustrum_Ridcully answers that question well. And no, you can't finesse a greatsword even with the Finesse Specialization feat unless you are large-sized (see the feat for more detail).
I have play tested these feats...and they come out balanced (more than fine actually). I think your reaction is similar to what most people thought of monks before playing one: that they were way broken.

Try these feats and see if they are broken beyond repair. I think you may find that they offer greater options instead of taking power away from the tank. YMMV however.

Regarding Tumbling Pass however, I originally had the tumble distance to 10 feet (and I use a variant tumble rule by the way), but after seeing that Oriental Adventures upped the tumble ability by giving them tumble at 10 feet and full attack at higher DC, I changed the distance for the feat. I'm still not sure if I was right in doing that...

 

[Darklone]

Finesse

Well... Why should I finesse a weapon when I got Str15? I'd hit 3 points better. That's a lot (at least for me lowlevel lowmagic DM). But ok, if you got some magic weapons and similar stuff, it's not that much...

Tumbling pass. Jump +15, Tumble+15. Are you speaking about ranks? If not: Too easy with the proper magical stuff. If yes: That's tough.

It's hard to incorporate here... In my gaming groups (don't DM all), the tumbling check does not help against the AoOs but you can use it instead of your AC. (with a mod -10 if you tumble through occupied areas).

 

[Ruvion]

Originally posted by Darklone
Well... Why should I finesse a weapon when I got Str15? I'd hit 3 points better. That's a lot (at least for me lowlevel lowmagic DM). But ok, if you got some magic weapons and similar stuff, it's not that much...

Considering that you have to blow two feats to finesse a longsword (or bastard sword if you have the exotic weapon proficiency to wield it in one hand)...I'm quite not sure if it is an advantage. It proves to be quite an advantage if you are willing to focus solely in Dexterity as you level...see here a character I made to take advantage of these feats (except Tumbling Pass):

http://www.enworld.org/messageboards/showthread.php?s=&threadid=473

Tumbling pass. Jump +15, Tumble+15. Are you speaking about ranks? If not: Too easy with the proper magical stuff. If yes: That's tough.

The answer to your question is: yes, it's tough. And...only an insane DM would allow a feat with skill requirements that were not ranks. Ranks usally (for purpose of attaining the feat) indicate experience (your current level) and dedication (the skills points spent to attain them)...and that is why I love using skill ranks as prerequisites.

It's hard to incorporate here... In my gaming groups (don't DM all), the tumbling check does not help against the AoOs but you can use it instead of your AC. (with a mod -10 if you tumble through occupied areas).

Well you could still incorporate it using your variant tumble rule...I don't see any trouble with them (interesting tumble rule by the by....I think I've seen a similar rule way back in Eric's board). Here's mine:

From my house rules
Tumbling (Dex) Skill: In addition to what is in the PHB, you can tumble up to 20 feet and still move normally if allowed by your base speed. You can not tumble beyond your base speed however. Opponents with at least 5 ranks in tumble, get a Reflex save DC = your tumble check, where success means they get an attack of opportunity. Also, when trying to tumble past or around an opponent with at least 10 ranks in Tumble, add the Dexterity modifier (and other ability modifiers that boost the AC) of the opponent to the DC (eg: you try to tumble around the area threatened by a goblin rogue [Dexterity of 17 and 12 ranks in Tumble] to flank him. The DC is no longer 15; the DC is 15+3 or 18). Monks with 10 ranks in Tumble benefit a lot from this rule: they add both their Dex and Wis modifiers (if positive) to the DC of tumble checks made against them.
In a case where you are trying to tumble around/past multiple enemies (with at least one foe with 10 ranks in Tumble), only one tumble check at the highest DC is needed. If you fail the Tumble check by 5 or more, you are allotted half of movement normally allowed by tumbling (thus movement of 10 feet instead of 20 feet for both medium and small-sized creatures) and suffer attacks of opportunity. If you fail the Tumble check by 10 or more, you are not allotted any movement and suffer attacks of opportunity.

The tumble only starts to be heavier in mechanic when dealing with tumble experts...otherwise it's the same as PHB.

 

[Darklone]

wahey

Well for your char ... dex 30 !!!!!!!!! Well.

Ok, I admit I lingered a long time in the low level regions (1-10).

For the skill ranks... being such a high level feat, I'd allow it too. Have to admit, I like feats and skills more than horrible powerful magics... (FORGET THE REALMS!)

As for that tumble rule where the tumble check raises your AC... yeah I stole it somewhere here

 

[Ruvion]

The Dex 30 guy is an NPC

Yeah...he's a horribly overpowered character but he's an NPC that I made as a DM, so it's okay I guess...

 

[CRGreathouse]

In general I dislike house rules, but I really like the first two feats. I don't much like the prerequisites, though; here's what I'd do:

Finesse Specialization: STR 13+, BAB +1, Proficient with weapon.

Natural Finesse: BAB +3, Weapon Finesse with any weapon.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I'll chime in with a couple of "finesse" feats I created.

Weapon Technique [General, Fighter]

Some of the great warriors of the world understand that the right technique can be just as effective as brute force.

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Dex 13+, Weapon Finesse, and base attack bonus +1 or higher
Benefit: Choose a melee weapon you have selected for Weapon Finesse. You can use up to half your Dexterity bonus in place of your Strength bonus for damage rolls when using one hand to attack and your full Dexterity bonus when using two hands to attack. When wearing armor, your dexterity bonus is limited by your armor’s maximum dexterity bonus for purposes of determining damage.
Special: This feat can be taken multiple times. A different weapon can be chosen each time.

Whirlwind Charge [General, Fighter]

Prerequisites: Int 13+, Expertise, Dex 13+, Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Whirlwind, base attack bonus +6 or higher
Benefit: When making a charge attack, you may make an attack at your highest base attack bonus against any opponent you pass within 5 feet (movement must enter and leave an opponent’s adjacent square). Any modifiers for charging and movement apply to all attacks when using Whirlwind Charge (+2 to hit, +2 AC). This feat does not negate attacks of opportunity from opponents when passing through threatened areas. An opponent will make his attack of opportunity (if he chooses) before you make your attack from Whirlwind Charge. You may only attack up to twice your dexterity modifier opponents in this fashion (minimum of two).
Normal: Without Whirlwind Charge, you could only charge through a threatened area provoking attacks of opportunity and only attack one opponent.
Special: Weapons with reach are still restricted to a 5-foot range when benefiting from this feat.

Feel free to check out my Dex-based class, the Successor

Later!

 

[CRGreathouse]

modifiers for charging and movement apply to all attacks when using Whirlwind Charge (+2 to hit, +2 AC)

+2 hit, -2 AC?

 

[Ruvion]

CRGreathouse: Originally the Finesse Specialization feat had the prereq you recommended: STR 13+, BAB +1, Proficient with weapon. After I made Natural Finesse and gave it a prereq of STR 13+, I changed that Finesse Spc. prereq to STR 15+...I figured you need the extra muscle for better coordination~ But it's your campaign do what you think fits best!

Regarding Natural Finesse...the feat was more like, you either have it at first level or you don't. Like a talent that you are born with and can't train for. I just didn't enforce that with mechanics 'cause my PCs weren't too into finesse.

I also think Cloudgatherer meant +2 to hit and -2 to AC...

Cloudgatherer: Nice feats! I didn't know the Whirlwind Charge feat that I stole from Eric's board was yours.

 

[Darklone]

huih

Well that whirlwind charge is tough... very tough. It's effective as hell if you got good AC and gives well armoured guys a chance to move fast and far and hit more guys as they would with whirlwind... depending on their dex. But Mobility helps too ... I think it's rather strong. Too strong. Perhaps make it only possible with light armours? That's not really a disadvantage though considering all those high magical armours and equipment most guys have ...

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Heh, I had lost track of this thread.

Yes, I did design whirlwind charge. I've had it for a for over 6 months now and posted it here for feedback. I've used it in game a couple of times, and works pretty much how I expected it to, not terribly powerful but useful for hitting adjacent targets when executing a charge (and they get to hit you too).

The modifiers are +2 to hit and +2 to AC due to the mobility feat (-2 AC for charging, +4 AC for mobility). So it's factored in since it is a prerequisite.

I had considered the WWC feat to be strong, but if you try it out, a fighter is essentially "trading blows". He'll get an attack, but must also take one (the AoO) from everyone he attacks. Using this against stronger opponents could potentially kill the fighter if he gets too greedy with his attacks. The situation boils down to, does the fighter feel lucky?

Later!

 

[Ruvion]

Forgot about that +4 mobility bonus....
Any others with their house finesse feats?
Any critique on mine?

 

[Cloudgatherer]

Finesse Specialization: Instead of having a feat that would allow finesse, I'd prefer a feat with higher requirements (feat chain maybe) and allows someone to weild a single weapon "like" it was affected by Weapon Finesse.

Natural Finesse: This is pretty powerful, even for not getting a Str bonus to damage (although you should not Str penalties still count). Most people who take Weapon Finesse don't have a high Str, so not much to give up here (unless Bull's Strength or belts of giant strength are added to the mix).

Tumbling Pass: A definite "no". I can picture the rogue now, moving about the battlefield sneak attacking everyone he can get to in 20 feet. Take away sneak attack and I still have a problem with the character attacking and moving about in between without drawbacks. That's kind of why I made WWC limiting, it can be powerful under the right circumstances, but it's not something to use all the time.

 

[CRGreathouse]

You shouldn't include the bonus from Mobility, because it doesn't always apply - the penalty to AClasts for a full round, and the Mobility bonus only applies when moving through a threatended area.

 

[Ruvion]

Originally posted by Cloudgatherer
Natural Finesse: This is pretty powerful, even for not getting a Str bonus to damage (although you should not Str penalties still count). Most people who take Weapon Finesse don't have a high Str, so not much to give up here (unless Bull's Strength or belts of giant strength are added to the mix).

It is powerful in the sense that you sacrifice at least one point of damage (from strength prerequisite) in order to finesse all weapons. The only drawback is as you've mentioned, the inability to use strength enhancing equipment or spells (although this in itself can be pretty disadvantageous). I've made this feat so that this can open a way for those finesse types that do not benefit much from WotC's emphasis on strength in combat. YMMV.

Tumbling Pass: A definite "no". I can picture the rogue now, moving about the battlefield sneak attacking everyone he can get to in 20 feet. Take away sneak attack and I still have a problem with the character attacking and moving about in between without drawbacks. That's kind of why I made WWC limiting, it can be powerful under the right circumstances, but it's not something to use all the time.

Originally this feat was limited to 10 feet. After looking at extreme tumbling from OA which allows you to tumble up to 10 feet and full attack, I bumped up the ability. Though, 20 feet of tumbling won't get you far away from your foes and the rogue doing this to a group of monsters will be mince meat if he doesn't drop them in that round. Again YMM of course varry.

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

My 2 cents:

1) The requirements for natural finesse are shaky.

For Fighters:

A) A fighter with a 13 or, especially, more Str is better off just using Weapon Finesse, since Str damage with 1 weapon is better than Dex bonus with many. Most fighters end up with Weapon Specialization and Weapon Focus anyway, so they are going to end up concentrating on one weapon and the rest are going to fall by the wayside.

B) Depending on how stats are decided (point buy, 4d6) most fighters can ill afford a 13+ Wis. They are, of course, better off with Con and Dex bonus. Even a high Int is usually more valuable, adding needed skill points, required for Expertise and, more importantly, adding AC to the Duelist, a class tailor made for the finesse warrior.

For Rogues and Monks:

A) The feat seems tailored towards the Rogue (traditionally high Dex and who have many important skills linked to Wisdom) and, especially, the Monk (high Dexterity and Wisdom essential). But, Str is usually a low priority for Rogues, especially when it will be of literally no use with this feat. Monks with unarmed attacks will also see diminished returns with the feat (though they are better off than the Rogue) as unarmed blows, their most common attacks, will only have a damage bonus with a 14+ Str.

B) Monks don't have off-hands with their unarmed attacks, and only rarely with their special monk weapon attacks, so the 1/4 Str to off hand attacks won't mean much. Not a big concern, but the feat description does seem pointed towards them, so....

C) Most importantly, neither Monks or Rogues have proficiency in all simple and martial weapons.

2) Tumbling Pass.

Too much in my opinion. Yes, the requirements are high, but nothing that an average monk or, especially, rogue won't have at 12th level. Here's the real problem I see:

A) Typical 12th level adventuring Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). Fighter engaged with a big bad guy, Wizard and Cleric casting spells and so on. Normal Rogue tactics, tumble in and make one sneak attack. Next round hope the bad guy doesn't kill you, sneak attack once and tumble away or, if you feel lucky, full sneak attack. Next round, if you've tumbled away, you are only going to get 1 sneak attack. If you didn't tumble away, you are probably bleeding on the floor.

-Vs-

Typical 12th level adventuring Rogue with Tumbling Pass and armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). Fighter engaged with a big bad guy, Wizard and Cleric casting spells and so on. New Rogue tactics, tumble in and make one sneak attack. Next round, hope the bad guy doesn't kill you, then full sneak attack and tumble 10' away. If the bad guy follows you, the fighter gets an AoO and the enemy gets only one attack. If he doesn't follow you, the next round you tumble in, full sneak attack and then tumble back out to the same distance, gaining a great deal of damage immunity.

B) Typical 12th level Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). His opponents are the same. Rogue wins initiative. Round one, he tumbles past the front line fighters and gets a single sneak attack against the Wizard. Wizard likely seriously injured. Remainder of round one, Rogue pounded into bloody mess.

-VS-

Typical 12th level Rogue armed with a dagger. Member of the archetypal adventuring band (Wizard, Rogue, Fighter, Cleric). His opponents are the same. Rogue wins initiative. Round one, he tumbles past the front line fighters and full sneak attacks the Wizard. Wizard DEAD, 95% guaranteed. Remainder of round one, Rogue pounded into bloody mess, but has a better chance of survival since the enemy wizard is too busy hemoraging to fight.

C) Hasting makes it much worse. Normal Rogue tumbles in 20', uses a full sneak attack and that's it. He's stuck til next round.

-VS-

Rogue tumbles in 20', uses a full sneak attack, then uses the partial action to do a normal 20' tumble away. Enemy has to chase him, losing any multiple attacks it might have. Rogue gains serious damage immunity.

 

[Ruvion]

I haven't play tested tumbling pass yet (the other two seems okay IMC), but I see letting tumbling done a la spring attack may be overpowered.

Tumbling pass is in this state of current incarnation:

Tumbling Pass [General, Regional]: You are a master of the acrobatic fighting style.
Benefit: When using the full attack action with finessed or light weapons, you can tumble up to 20 feet (with a successful tumble check) before or after your attacks (in a permutation of a “full attack--tumble” sequence). Only one tumble check is needed as per tumbling rules, but if you fail the tumble check by 5 or more, you are allotted a movement of 10 feet instead of 20 feet and suffer attacks of opportunity. If you fail the Tumble check by 10 or more, you are not allotted any movement and suffer attacks of opportunity.
Special: You do not get a 5-foot step during the round when using Tumbling Pass unless hasted. When hasted, you get one 5-foot step or a regular move when using Tumbling Pass.
Prerequisites: Jump +15, Tumble +15, Spring Attack, Proficient with finessed or light weapon.

Better?