Feint on rougues or barbarians with uncannt dodge (dex to AC)
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kreynolds
First Post
AGGEMAM said:
That's all I need. The point of Uncanny Dodge is that you can't be surprised as long as you aren't tied up. As far as I'm concerned, unless you juggling nitroglycerin, climbing a rope, or disarming a bomb, when you're in combat, I don't think it matters how good someone else is at bluffing. The description of Uncanny Dodge has some pretty strong language about you not losing your Dex bonus to AC, because you have a, get this, UNCANNY danger sense.
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Roland Delacroix
First Post
kreynolds said:
Interesting house rule. Why don't you post in that forum then? This is the Rules forum, implying we discuss the rules as written by WotC.
kreynolds
First Post
Roland Delacroix said:
Gee. That was impressive. Come up with that wonderfully snippy reply all by yourself, did ya'? If you're so fired up to debunk my argument, why don't you explain why Feinting using Bluff would deny a rogue their Dex bonus instead of just wasting bandwidth?
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whatisitgoodfor
First Post
Why Feinting works
Uncanny Dodge allows Rogues and Barbarians to perform certain defensive actions without even being aware of the impending attack. Thus, they retain their dex bonus to AC while flat footed, attacked by an invisible attacker, and at higher levels they even get to parry those annoying flanking attacks.
However, when someone is using Bluff to feint, they deliberately fool their opponent into doing something really, really, really stupid. Effectively, they make their opponent react consciously to an attack that is never going to get there.
This conscious action on the part of the defender is what bypasses UD. They can't react to the unseen blow because they are in the middle of reacting to a fully seen blow, albeit one that will never actually connect.
Now then, how Feinting while invisible works, I'll never understand. Hope that helps, you over reacting flame monger you.
Uncanny Dodge allows Rogues and Barbarians to perform certain defensive actions without even being aware of the impending attack. Thus, they retain their dex bonus to AC while flat footed, attacked by an invisible attacker, and at higher levels they even get to parry those annoying flanking attacks.
However, when someone is using Bluff to feint, they deliberately fool their opponent into doing something really, really, really stupid. Effectively, they make their opponent react consciously to an attack that is never going to get there.
This conscious action on the part of the defender is what bypasses UD. They can't react to the unseen blow because they are in the middle of reacting to a fully seen blow, albeit one that will never actually connect.
Now then, how Feinting while invisible works, I'll never understand. Hope that helps, you over reacting flame monger you.
Voadam
Legend
KR,
Here is some flavor text to support it.
Uncanny dodge keeps you on guard all the time even against things that you can't see or when you are shocked by the unexpected (surprise and invisibility). When you are bluffed, you are faked out of a guarded position into a vulnerable one. In the vulnerable position an expert tactician can take advantage of that fact and strike while you are vulnerable.
From a rules perspective, the uncanny dodge states two specific conditions under which it works. Anything else is going beyond the stated conditions.
It could have been easily written to apply except when the dodger physically can not dodge.
-Beaten to the punch by Whatisitgoodfor-
Here is some flavor text to support it.
Uncanny dodge keeps you on guard all the time even against things that you can't see or when you are shocked by the unexpected (surprise and invisibility). When you are bluffed, you are faked out of a guarded position into a vulnerable one. In the vulnerable position an expert tactician can take advantage of that fact and strike while you are vulnerable.
From a rules perspective, the uncanny dodge states two specific conditions under which it works. Anything else is going beyond the stated conditions.
It could have been easily written to apply except when the dodger physically can not dodge.
-Beaten to the punch by Whatisitgoodfor-
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Ridley's Cohort
First Post
kreynolds said:
No.
You are reading the rules and translating them into your own rule of thumb that says thus. The rule books themselves say nothing of the kind.
The point of Uncanny Dodge is that you do not lose your Dex bonus under certain specified common conditions. It says nothing about other, less common, conditions. Jumping to the conclusion that it should work always (except when helpless) is flawed logic.
Voadam
Legend
Re: Why Feinting works
"Oh my god! what is that thing behind you!"
Opponent with poor sense motive roll, "What is it?" cannot help itsself and turns around . . .
SMACK!
Perhaps they toss a small rock behind the opponent to make them think the invisible attacker is behind them, yeah, that's how it works.
whatisitgoodfor said:
Now then, how Feinting while invisible works, I'll never understand. Hope that helps, you over reacting flame monger you.
"Oh my god! what is that thing behind you!"
Opponent with poor sense motive roll, "What is it?" cannot help itsself and turns around . . .
SMACK!
Perhaps they toss a small rock behind the opponent to make them think the invisible attacker is behind them, yeah, that's how it works.
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