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[FFG] Legendary Class Design Contest!

Re: Note on the Deadeye...

Khur said:
I'm glad my insight helped a bit. I hoped not to insult anyone with my criticisms. :)



I noticed this, I just think being able to attack everyone in the area is a bit much. That's why I said like plus two (or maybe 3) attacks (additional) per power level at the highest attack rating. So a 15th level fighter type would have 3 regular attacks, and with the barrage ability, at say 4th-level, he would get 8 more attacks per round at +15 (BAB) for a total of 9 plus two lower BAB attacks--11 attacks! That's a lot!


Yeah, it should definitely be a full-round action. The limiting factor was supposed to be the distance from the archer. I guess if he's surrounded, that's a lot of arrows. Actually I think the problem would be solved but putting a cap on the number of shots per round. Ten arrows a round is probably more than enough.
 

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Elf Lord - An interesting class focusing on avoiding death for the most part. Magical strike and Reveal His Glory don't fit very well in my opinion. A defensive roll-type ability would have been a nice addition to this legendary class. It seems very focuses otherwise. Oh, it also has funky saves. :)

Tender of the Essential Essense - The first quest is probably the most creative of the legendary quests I've read so far. I like the idea of purging yourself of your negative essense and them battling it. Unfortunately, that's about all I liked in this one. The pre-reqs are really strange. A ranger/cleric seems best suited to suited to meet the requirements. The will save is strange. It must not be BASE Will save, because a 20th-level straight cleric could get it...but that's about it. If its not base Will save, then it probably too easy to get that +12 to their base save. The remainder of the abilities I thought were good, but too powerful. Cultivate Life: 72 extra hit points at level 5, regeneration of 1 per power level is very powerful, damage reduction 2 points per power level is a bit strong as well.

The Maitre d'Escrime - A very focused legendary class that is a supercharged duelist. I loved it. None of the abilities overlaped with that non-OCG PrC. Some abilities of note are extraordinary expertise and ligntning riposte. Both were very appropriate to the flavor of the class. The quest may have been a little light. Maybe something a little more rigorous in addition to beating three people in a duel.

Green Warden - Basically a diplomatic ranger...a very focused class again. It abilities complimented this nicely with Charisma bonuses and bonuses to leadership and other ranger-based abilities. The only complaint is that you can qualify for this legendary class at level 9. Maybe a little low, but that can be easily remedied.
 

Prerequisites

Prereqs are sometimes difficult to come by; you should always remember that a character has to be at least 12th level to pick up an LgC level. Some ways to do this are:

BAB +12: an option used by most of the entries.

Skill ranks 15+: an option I didn't see in the entries, and a very good one to use.

Base Fort/Ref/Will save: +8; didn't see this one used either.

Spellcasting: must be able to cast 7th level spells. Puts the class at level 13, but still a good one to use.
 

Re: Prerequisites

d20Dwarf said:
Prereqs are sometimes difficult to come by; you should always remember that a character has to be at least 12th level to pick up an LgC level. Some ways to do this are:

BAB +12: an option used by most of the entries.

Skill ranks 15+: an option I didn't see in the entries, and a very good one to use.

Base Fort/Ref/Will save: +8; didn't see this one used either.

Spellcasting: must be able to cast 7th level spells. Puts the class at level 13, but still a good one to use.

I actually used the Skill based level restriction on the Grandmaster of Clouds. (Tumble and Move Silently both required 16 ranks.) But I think that was an exception because of the group of classes the Path of the Sword focuses on. A BAB-based requirement seemed appropriate. No one cares about the legendary fighter...who losses every battle because he's got such a low BAB. :)
 

More critiques and fun...

Did the LC design Contest Rules state anywhere the character has to be 12th –level to take a LC? I don’t remember it saying so, nor the downloadable literature saying so. The prereqs were the hardest part of designing the class, and I’m changing mine a bit if we do a netbook for EN World.

More critiques:

The Green Warden has a good (hard) quest (the first is a bit easy) and is tightly focused. It has definite value in the roleplay and roll-play department. The vow of silence is cool. I liked all of the abilities and each related to power level in some way. They were all kinda fun too. Dogged pursuit calls to mind Gimli in the Two Towers saying, “I cannot run all the way to Isengard!”—but he did, perhaps with Aragorn’s help. I think that the reqs for this class need to be abit sharper. At least the BAB should be +11 or so, that way, like Shadeus and d20 Dwarf said, the character has to be 12th-level. A Base Will Save might be in order for the Green Warden as well.

The Hero needs a better name (Fist of the Northstar, Warrior Prince) :p and the quests need to be more defined. The class could take shape as something solid with a bit more work. I cannot figure out at what class this legendary class is aimed. Maybe this could be a good thing, but the abilities seem to come from all of the fighting classes save Ranger. Other abilities raise questions like, if your character fails to strike a foe he is using Flying Kick against in a round, and the foe therefore does not move backward, what happens to your character? Another is Heroic Toss should require a foe to be grappled. The Ricochet ability is one of the ones that has a lot of potential, but is a bit cumbersome and unclear as presented. Aren’t the legendary classes limited to 5 levels?

The King’s Warden has one of the nicest quests I’ve seen in so far as thematics and the requirements are very steep (this is good). The Fast Track ability is good (and points out a little used part of the rules). Stalker doesn’t give a big enough bonus, especially considering the bonuses some “official (i.e. published in Dragon) prestige classes get. I like Sixth Sense, Shared Animosity, and Nature’s Acuity very much. Maybe Hunter’s Eye should provide a bonus to Wilderness Lore and Tracking versus animals and for gathering food?

Merely winning archery contests does not make a Legendary Archer. That said, I like most of the abilities, though, like the class name, the ability names could be flashier … I like flash … like any good American consumer. I think multiplying the damage from criticals on Damaging Arrows is probably a bad idea. I also think that no ability should ever grant an automatic accomplishment, so True Strike is right out for me. Maybe the Legendary Archer could use the spell true strike once or twice per day per power level.

The Lord of the Land seems like a good idea, but some ritual mystic tie to the land seems to be in order … like the pagan ceremony Arthur undergoes in The Mists of Avalon. Recognition of some applicable deity through some heroic act would be good. The quests seem not more than would be expected of any good noble. The binding of the land to the lord is very nice, but needs more strict definition. Shouldn’t Defender of the Land stack at each power level? Commander of the Land, Seer of the Land, Leader of the Land, Healer of the Land, and Traveler of the Land all need to be more closely tied to power level too, but they’re great ideas. I also think the noble should have a class skill list like the aristocrat or fighter.

The Monk of Never Ending Battle has a sad life, and one of questionable moral philosophy IMO. I question the “enlightenment” of individuals who battle over nuances in goodness. I like the quests for this class though. Haven Bless is way too powerful. Smiting Light is a cool ability and so is Call a Favor. I think this class is a great idea in principle, just that the background needs to be changed a bit and the powers tweaked. The biggest downer for me is the fact that the monk is at odds with other good beings.

I like the Neclord, though not the name so much. What is this Necropolis from which the Neclord issues? A hamlet in D&D can have no more than 400 people, most of whom are commoners … an easy target, so not much of a quest if you have 500 shambling corpses backing you up. Of course, you could have meant hamlet in a looser meaning. Most of the Neclord’s powers are great and very in theme with the class. Resist Negative Energy should have a huge bonus, like +2 or +3 per power level. The use of spells in conjunction with the skeletal hand attacks is a nice touch (pun intended)—why not add abilities for chill touch and ghoul touch? Perhaps Crippling Touch should drain only Con and/or Str or replicate the poison spell. I think Turn Resistance and Bolster Undead could be combined in a spell-like effect like the unhallow spell without the benefit of said effect being tied to a site. Certainly, the Neclord should be able to generate a magic circle against good, regardless.

The Nimrod is a good idea, but many of the powers seem a bit tame (pun intended). The saving throw bonuses seem a bit weird as well. Does it say anywhere in the Core Rules that Heal cannot be used on animals? I think that bonus Druidic language should be a class feature. I like the druidic abilities, but just 0-level spells? Further, why not push the Druidic Abilities power to gaining druid abilities of the power level +1—that way there’s an advantage to taking it no matter what. (Or you could take Nature Sense as a class feature away and leave it the same. Further, the description of Druidic Abilities says there is no advantage to power level 5—why not … does the Nimrod not gain wild shape? I think my favorite Nimrod ability is Environmental Attunement. What does “peaceful outdoor setting” mean in the description of Hunting Ability? Like I said, the class is a good idea, but the powers need some honing.

The Ranged Huntsman is another good ranger class (we seem to like rangers and monks in this contest). Of course, the Huntsman must be at least a 4th-level fighter to meet the Feat requirements. (Paul did a good job with his prerequisites BTW, probably the best in the group—even if I dislike requirements of 18 stat scores.) In the first quest it seems unclear to me whether or not just one of these acts is required – if so, it’s too easy. If the Huntsman can use the healing herbs of nature to mystically heal, shouldn’t he be required to have Profession (herbalist) and the Heal skill at a certain level? I also think that Improved Far Shot would have been enough range-affecting powers. Improved Rapid shot is good and a lot like what I recommended for the Deadeye Archer. I like that such a character is especially deadly to his favored enemies, but these powers seem a bit too powerful … they could be scaled back a bit.

The Returning Avatar is a great concept (the danger of the name is the use of avatar which is usually reserved for the earthly manifestation of a god). I don’t understand why Weapon Finesse is on the list of feat requirements (nor why such a character would need Iron Will). I would think that a Returning Avatar would have to do something that won him or her the adulation of the masses as well as the favoring eye of the deity in question (and would probably, therefore, need to be good or neutral aligned). The quests strike me as appropriate, but kinda flat. For example, a warrior desiring to become a Returning Avatar (of St. Cuthbert) might gather and train an army to drive out an invading tyrant’s armies and place a new king on the throne (ala Joan of Arc) while meting out justice to the leaders of the opposing force as they deserve. I don’t understand the paired-down Weapon Proficiency list (nor the limit of 4 levels)—shouldn’t this list include the deity’s favored weapon? For that matter, shouldn’t the avatar have to proficient in said favored weapon? The abilities are a bit limited and seem to relate very strangely to power level. This class is a great legendary idea, but needs some work.

Spirit of the Beast shapes up to be one of my favorites in concept. Unfortunately, it reads like the author was afraid to commit to the idea of legendary power. I think the Binding Ritual Quest has too steep save DCs and the price of failure is too high, unless the shaman is aiding the aspirant with magic on those saving throws. I don’t really like that the abilities are only useable in a Rage state, and, with that in mind, why does Rage Form bother to state that the ability is used when in Rage? Howl of the Beast is way too powerful, and should be something that affects enemy morale or something. Why does the animal spirit have an elemental subtype? It would make more sense to make some unique aspect to spirits. Spirit Walk is weak, considering spells such as etherealness and ethereal jaunt. Totemic Aura, on the other hand is too powerful, one bonus or the other please. Totemic Smite is a good idea, but the favored enemy feature and the smite ability (perhaps) should be two separate powers. Spirit Lore is the same as Knowledge (spirits) BTW. I would have liked to see this class have a hybrid form ability like the Beorning warriors of Middle Earth. This is still one of my favorite submissions!

Jack Burton never had it so rough in Big Trouble in Little China (one of the greatest movies of all time)! The Storm rocks! I’d have liked to see a Will save higher on this character class and the ability Lightning Strike tied more heavily to power level (like once per day per power level). I really love The Calm Before ability. Heated Rage needs a bit of work to make it seem more unique, instead of just stacking with other rage … although that’s pretty scary. Thunderclap should be once per day per power level and perhaps Warning Fires should last a number of rounds equal to the Storm’s Cha modifier plus power level. I just think that this guy should have access to the fly spell or air walk spell in some way. This class is fun … can I use it?


( I got lazy about the tags.) That’s it for now … I’ll get to the last few later on. Maybe we could make some the better ones here official FFG material for download on their site too? (After pro editing, of course.)
 

You are right, the design document didn't say they had to be at least 12th level to meet the prereqs....oops! I guess that was our little secret. ;)

The first level that a character should be able to become a legend is 13th. So if you look at our published classes, nearly all of them has a skill that requires 15 ranks, which can't be achieved until 12th level.

The Dragon example I used in the introduction does just this, he announced at 11th level so he could become the Dragon at 13th.
 

Thanks oodles

Many thanks to Shadeus and Khur for their time and effort spent doing these purely voluntary reviews. Their thoughts are most appreciated.

At least by me:)

-Reddist
 

Re: More critiques and fun...

Khur said:
Paul did a good job with his prerequisites BTW, probably the best in the group—even if I dislike requirements of 18 stat scores.
Thank you for the compliment.
 

I can see clearly now!

d20Dwarf said:
The first level that a character should be able to become a legend is 13th. So if you look at our published classes, nearly all of them has a skill that requires 15 ranks, which can't be achieved until 12th level.

Aha, but the Adamantine Warrior(tm) :p did not have a skill requirement, although the Black Knight info tacked on the end did. Both the Ghost Bear and the Witch Queen appearing in Polyhedron did too. DOH! I didn't see the pattern!

:(

Oh well. I'm still reworking mine a bit to make the quests harder and to fit the prerequisites in. Then I'm making a character (again) to make sure it all works out.

I must admit I had Prestige Classes on the brain when designing the prerequisites and wanted multiple paths to the Legendary Class. I see that there's not very much room for that in these classes. That's OK because other classes get their own books.

Thanks!
 

Nimrod Legendary Class

Khur,
Thanks for your comments on my Nimrod Legendary Class. Here’s what some of my reasoning was behind a few of the abilities you questioned:
1) Tameness (nice pun) on powers – I wanted something that offered definite advantages over being just a plain Ranger, but not something that was too powerful or over the top as to definitely upset game balance. With this in mind, I probably tended to err on the cautious side.
2) Saves – I used the “higher” save bonus recommended for levels 1-5 (just as Rangers do), but just like in the Adamantite Warrior example, I decided to improve the remaining saves over what was suggested by the standard “lower” bonus. An alternative would have been to use the “higher” saves for two of the three saving throws (Fort and Will, for example), and the “lower” bonus for one rather than two saves. My intent again, was to give a bonus over the standards, but not too “over the top”.
3) The Heal Skill does not (to my knowledge) explicitly say anywhere that it cannot be used on animals, but the write up in the Player’s Handbook reads as if it was intended for use only on player character races. To have it applicable to animal species as well, by default, seems a bit of a leap to me, but would probably vary according to DM’s discretion.
4) Druidic abilities – You offered some great suggestions, but the one thing I did not want to use was the Druid’s “Wild Shape” ability, as I was trying to create a character that had managed to “attune” themselves to animals and nature, without actually having the ability to "be" an animal. It was a purposeful omission. As far as the 0-level spells and my reasoning for not automatically granting some of the abilities as class abilities, again, I tended to be somewhat conservative, as I want players to be able to customize the class to their liking, but didn’t want to make them uber-burly. That was my original line of thinking anyway, but I *really* liked some of your suggestions here !
5) “Peaceful outdoor setting” – Basically, when the Nimrod would have surprise - no combat currently taking place, and the Nimrod has managed to find an advantageous location, through the use of Hide, Move Silently, etc. as applicable.
Again, Khur, thanks a lot for taking the time to put your suggestions/reviews together. I’m sure most everyone who submitted a Legendary Class appreciated your well thought out feedback !
*Sheridan
 

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