Fighter/Wizard a good choice now! [3.5]

[sithramir]

Can I be a munchkin please? But not the wizard of oz munchkins please. If I had to be a wizard of oz munchkin I think i'd rather just be a flying monkey. WOW flying monkeys. What a great idea.

I'm surprised some horny monkey hasn't looked at some of those birds sitting next to him up in the trees and thought "well that would be interesting. No female monkeys around ANYWAYS... I can always blame it on suped up banana sugar high right?"

 

[mooby]

The EK is boring, so is the Mystic Theurge, but hey get the job done. Multiclassing a spellcaster doesn't suck anymore, and now I can play my "Cloud (Final Fantasy 7) wannabe"

 

[d12]

So, here's a EK I made yesterday. I think any of us could build a "better" or at least equal character with a strait fighter or wizard using the same conditions.

10th level
50,000 gp
32 point buy
Eldritch Knight

Agulo

Male Dwarf Fighter 1/Transmuter 5/Eldritch Knight 4
S 16 [20]
D 10 [12]
C 16 [18]
I 16
W 14
Ch 8

HP: 72
AC: 15 (touch 11, FF 14) add +4 shield bonus for shield spell. Add +1 dodge bonus for Haste. 50% miss chance for displacement

Feats: Weapon Focus: Glaive ,Lightning Reflexes, Spell Penetration, Power Attack, Die Hard, Spellcasting Prodigy ,Craft Wondrous Item

SPELLS PER DAY: 4+1/5+1/4+1/4+1/3+1
0 (DC 14)- Detect Magic (x2), Read Magic, Ray of Frost
1 (DC 15)- Feather Fall, Magic Missile, Shield, True Strike (x3)
2 (DC 16)- Rope Trick, Invisibility, Snilloc’s Snowball Swarm, Gedlee’s Electric Loop, Scorching Ray
3 (DC 17)- Haste, Fly, Displacement, Fireball, Protection from Energy
4 (DC 18)– Polymorph, Arcane Eye, Dimension Door, Ice Storm

opposition schools: Necromancy and enchantment

Gear:
+1 Flaming Glaive [8000]
Bracers of Armor +4 [16000]
Guantlets of Ogre Power +4 [16,000]
Boots of Dexterity +2 [4,000]
Amulet of Health +2 [4000]
Light Crossbowbow
2,000 gp worth of potions and minor mundane items


BAB: +7
Init: +1

Saves
Fort: +11
Ref: +5
Will: +7

Attacks
+14/+9 +1 Flaming Glaive 1d10+7/x3 plus 1d6 fire (reach)
OR with Maximum Power Attack
+7/+2 +1 Flaming Glaive 1d10+21/x3 plus 1d6 fire (reach)
OR
+8 Light Crossbow 1d8/19-20 x2

 

[drnuncheon]

You say that like it's a significant compensation for getting BOTH fighting and spellcasting at almost the full rate. It's not.

You say that like the EK isn't giving up just about everything that makes the fighting class useful. He is.

See, when people say things like "getting BOTH fighting and spellcasting at almost the full rate", it sounds really scary. But it's not. Someone with 10 levels of EK doesn't get anywhere near the fighting ability of a fighter. He's missing out on 20 hit points and 4 feats, or a slew of special barbarian or ranger or paladin abilities.

Looked at from the other side, he's a wizard who's given up a level of spellcasting and two wizard feats for +5 BAB, +5 hp, and a fighter feat (oh, and swapped good Will for good Fort).

Is he going to dominate in melee? Hell no. The fighter's still +2 BAB and 4 feats ahead of him (at least), plus he's got fewer stats to concentrate on boosting. Unless the EK wants to suck up spell failure, the fact that he can't wear armor is going to mean his AC is lower than the fighter's.

Is he going to dominate at spellcasting? Again, no. He's at least a spell level behind the single-class wizard, the wizard will have more spellcasting feats, and not have to worry about boosting the physical stats as much. So the wizard is going to be a better caster.

The EK pretty much winds up as a second-string fighter and good caster - kind of like a cleric, really. I don't think it's as scary as most people think it is.

Now, if it got +1 BAB, +1 spellcasting, and a feat every 2 levels...then you'd have a point.

J

 

[d12]

drnuncheon - I couldn't have said it better. Actually, I tried and DIDN'T say it better.

 

[Psion]

You say that like the EK isn't giving up just about everything that makes the fighting class useful. He is.

See, when people say things like "getting BOTH fighting and spellcasting at almost the full rate", it sounds really scary. But it's not.

Horsepucky.

Wizard spellcasting advancement is the most powerful class feature in the game. Easily. Worth way more than what the EK loses in terms of feats.

A wizard gets half BAB advancement and only get familiar advancement that EK does not. And that's supposed to be a fair exchange?

 

[drnuncheon]

A wizard gets half BAB advancement and only get familiar advancement that EK does not. And that's supposed to be a fair exchange?

Don't let "half BAB advancement" fool you into thinking that the wizard's final BAB is going to be half of the Eldritch Knight's. It's going to be +10 vs. +15 (assuming the EK goes for maximum casting ability.)

The wizard is trading, minimum, two levels of wizard spellcasting - "the most powerful class feature in the game" as you say - for that enormous net +5 to BAB.

That +5 BAB and his d6 hit die let him him fight - well, about like a bard. And we all know how twinked out bards are in combat, right? Except he can't even wear light armor like the bard without messing up his most powerful class feature.

J
stacking crit range bonuses is scary too until you run the numbers

 

[d12]

I think it will totally balance out in play. A 13th level wizard has limited wish. A 13th level EK doesn't. That's a pretty big power break. The wizard probably has a higher Int than the EK (especially if you're using point buy) so his DCs will be higher. The wizard has sunk ALL of his magical tiems into things that make hiim a better wizard: wands, rings, bracers, etc.... The EK has bought a magic weapon here, a wand there. The wizard is going to get through SR more often than the EK.

Look at it this way - If the party walks into a room of mooks and the EK and the wizard both cast fireball, the result is going to be very similar. But when they go up against the BBEG and the wizard casts his highest level spell (say, Otto's irresistable Dance) and the EK can't bring that kind of power to the table, everyone sees who has the real magical juice and who doesn't.

This prestige class just makes the fighter/mage playable again without making it a must-have. We aren't going to see everyone trading in their archmages for E Knights. It ain't gonna happen. Why? Because the EK appeals to people like me who want to run decent fighter/mages and don't mind playing third fiddle in the party. I think its cool that the character I posted could polymorph into a troll and wade into combat with a decent BAB or haste himself, cast true strike and then power attack for vicious damage a few times per day (even in troll form!). But his wizard friend is gonna be casting cone of cold and wall of force and prying eyes. His barbarian friend is going to be power attacking EVERY round and he won't need to waste time with true strike - he's just gonna swing away and do it much better than the EK.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Chalk me up as a person intrigued by the assumption that some players make that any PrC in an "official" book is somehow a core class, and that it's OK to take multiple PrCs. "Why yes, I do think that a Fighter/Wizard/Eldritch Knight/Mystic Theurge/Red Wizard/Achmage/Dragon Disciple is a cool combo. Just look at how big my p***s is now!"

Cheers, Al'Kelhar

I agree. Do DMs know how to say "no" anymore?

Anyway I think the EK is fine and just as flavorful as an old fighter/mage multiclass combo.

 

[Psion]

Don't let "half BAB advancement" fool you into thinking that the wizard's final BAB is going to be half of the Eldritch Knight's. It's going to be +10 vs. +15 (assuming the EK goes for maximum casting ability.)

And why would you assume that I would make such a mistake? I think you should know me better than that by now.

I refer merely to the fact that for the duration of the PrC, the class is getting 90% of wizard spell advancement and 100% BAB advancement. Being forced to make suboptimal choices beforehand is a factor, but as the numerous examples here have shown, one level of fighter and the remaining levels in wizard is more than sufficient, which in turn means that the conundrums that the character needs to go through to get there are not especially taxing.