D&D 5E Fighting Style for Melee Knife/Dagger Use

[DND_Reborn]

@dnd4vr I don't think the crossbow counts as a ranged weapon when you throw it either. It's an improvised weapon, which is its own thing.

You know I wrote that in the post, right? But you can still argue it the other way, after all an improvised weapon is still a weapon.

So, I'm pointing out how ridiculous the rulings can be to some tables, and at others that would have been a really cool attack:

Player: Crap, I don't have any more bolts for my light crossbow.
DM: Well, the orc sniper is about 50 feet away, across the ravine, and partially hidden behind the wall. It's too bad, your Sharpshooter feat would have come in handy with the cover.
Player: Ha! You know what, I throw the crossbow at the orc!
DM: Um, ok, I guess you can...

Everything thing plays out, the player hits, and the table cheers at the dead orc.

Would I allow it to work that way? No, I've said repeatedly I wouldn't. Would I care if others did? Does it break anything in the game? Nope, not a lick. So, again, why complicate a simple thing with convoluted rules and interpretations? Seems silly IMO, but oh well.

 

[Esker]

You know I wrote that in the post, right? But you can still argue it the other way, after all an improvised weapon is still a weapon.

So, I'm pointing out how ridiculous the rulings can be to some tables, and at others that would have been a really cool attack:

Player: Crap, I don't have any more bolts for my light crossbow.
DM: Well, the orc sniper is about 50 feet away, across the ravine, and partially hidden behind the wall. It's too bad, your Sharpshooter feat would have come in handy with the cover.
Player: Ha! You know what, I throw the crossbow at the orc!
DM: Um, ok, I guess you can...

Everything thing plays out, the player hits, and the table cheers at the dead orc.

Would I allow it to work that way? No, I've said repeatedly I wouldn't. Would I care if others did? Does it break anything in the game? Nope, not a lick. So, again, why complicate a simple thing with convoluted rules and interpretations? Seems silly IMO, but oh well.

Oh, you can definitely throw it, as an improvised weapon, for 1d4+STR, but you don't get archery bonus to hit, and you can't use -5/+10, is my claim. Because you're not using it as a ranged weapon, you're using it as an improvised weapon that you throw.

 

[Esker]

It is on the ranged weapon table. That is what defines a "ranged weapon".

Obviously.

A weapon you attack at range isn't a ranged weapon. A weapon you use to make a ranged weapon attack isn't a ranged weapon. Things on the ranged weapon table are ranged weapons!

Anything else is madness.

Yeah, but when you throw it, you're not using it as a crossbow. Just like the longsword gains a 20/60 range when you use it as an improvised weapon, the crossbow loses its "ranged weapon" status.

 

[DND_Reborn]

Oh, you can definitely throw it, as an improvised weapon, for 1d4+STR, but you don't get archery bonus to hit, and you can't use -5/+10, is my claim. Because you're not using it as a ranged weapon, you're using it as an improvised weapon that you throw.

But you think you could still get the no disadvantage for long range and ignoring most cover, right?

And for some people, they could argue that regardless of how it is being used, it is a "ranged weapon". It doesn't shift to a new part of the table in the PHB after all.

For the record, hopefully at this point you get that I agree with you but understand how other people could feel and interpret it otherwise.

Either way, I think the distinction in such cases is pointless. Neither ruling is "better" or "worse." I do think, however, the logic behind the concept and RAI should take precedence. Sharpshooter is about being great and doing impossible things with ranged weapons (first sentence). In a similar light, I wouldn't let someone use GWM with a longbow swung as a melee weapon. It is "heavy" after all, and if you make a melee attack with it, people could argue the second benefit of GWM should work. Seems silly to me to allow that, but hey who am I to judge, right?

 

[NotAYakk]

Yeah, but when you throw it, you're not using it as a crossbow. Just like the longsword gains a 20/60 range when you use it as an improvised weapon, the crossbow loses its "ranged weapon" status.

Sure, but when you throw a knife you aren't using it for a melee weapon either, but it is on the table so it is treated like one.

 

[Quartz]

So you could throw a longsword 60 feet without disadvantage if you had sharpshooter (but no proficiency bonus to hit, unless you also had tavern brawler). It's weird but strictly worse than throwing a dagger.

This happens at the end of Robin Hood Prince of Thieves when Azeem kills the witch with a well-thrown scimitar. A longsword would just be thrown more like a spear.

 

[DND_Reborn]

This happens at the end of Robin Hood Prince of Thieves when Azeem kills the witch with a well-thrown scimitar. A longsword would just be thrown more like a spear.

Yeah, a thrown scimitar is more like throwing an axe IMO.

 

[Ancalagon]

Sheesh! The Fairbairn-Sykes dagger is just under 12" long total, with a blade of just over 6". A 12" blade is massive - I'd call that a short sword in D&D

A pugio (roman dagger) had a 7-12 inch blade, a rondel had about 12 inch blade, a Tanto 15 inches, a dirk 12 inch blade... shall I go on? The Fairbarin-Sykes fighting knife would be a small dagger by historical standards.

edit: see also https://myarmoury.com/feature_spot_bd.html

 

[Esker]

Sure, but when you throw a knife you aren't using it for a melee weapon either, but it is on the table so it is treated like one.

But when you throw a dagger you're using it as written, and so it keeps its properties (and your proficiency with daggers is what governs the attack). Improvised weapons cease to have whatever properties they used to have as weapons the moment they are treated as improvised weapons, seems to me. That also accounts for not being able to use the GWM power attack with a longbow: It doesn't have the heavy property while it's being used as an improvised weapon.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, if +2 Attack isn’t interesting enough, or you simply want each Fighting Style to do a different thing, what about:

+1 to hit, and when you crit you deal extra damage equal to X? Proficiency mod?