Fighting Styles vs Feats, which is better?

[Horwath]

For that kind of project, remember that Archery and Dueling scale implicitly with Extra Attacks. Defense scales both with number of attacks received (the more received, the more damage it will mitigate) and at the margin... how to explain that? Say a foe needs 14+ to hit my Plate and Shield AC of 20. What is +1 worth in that situation? In one sense, it is worth 5%, but in terms of reduction of expected hits it is worth 1/7 or about 14% (there were 7 ways for a foe to hit me, now there are 6). Say I usually also get Greater Invis. cast on me, now it's value goes through the roof.

In summary, some seemingly small values are magnified through features that scale with tier.



Side note, Dueling, TWF and Protection are bad styles. I'd start with them, were I improving fighting styles.

I would combine dueling style with part of dual wielder feat. That is ability bonus to damage and one handed weapon use.

Dueling could add proficiency bonus to damage

 

[Blue]

He asked "Any Thoughts?" I told him my thoughts, directly answering his question.

My apologies, I misinterpreted your response.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

1) I think you are overfocusing the importance of fighting styles. They aren't really intended to be build defining unless you want them to be. Subclass choice is meant to be the main choice.

2) I think you are over-focusing on the fighter class. If you look at other classes, most of them get abilities that amount to little more than fluff.

That could be entirely the case. Fighter simply happens to be the first one I've had time to examine.

5) On the whole 5e is well balanced and fighters perform just fine. As the proverb goes, "if it aint broke don't try and fix it".

It isn't a matter of fixing it. I'm sure RAW works just fine, but that has been the case in every edition of D&D. You can play any of them without changing a thing and have a fun time, but house ruling exists so we can make the game our own and tweak it our taste. Some people like more combat-oriented and others prefer more intrigue or whatever. Some people prefer how-power and/or high-level games while others like the struggle of lower levels, etc.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

Side note, Dueling, TWF and Protection are bad styles. I'd start with them, were I improving fighting styles.

Dueling is far from terrible. A +2 bonus to damage is pretty significant, in comparison to the 1d8+3 that you're otherwise dealing. The only real problem is that it has to compete with +1 AC, which is probably going to win out for anyone who cares enough about AC to choose a shield in the first place. A champion with Dueling and Defense styles is a solid choice that does its job well and is easy to play.

Protection isn't bad, but it requires situational positioning, which can be hard to manage in narrow corridors. Defense is generally more applicable. It might actually be worth folding those two into each other.

 

[clearstream]

Dueling is far from terrible. A +2 bonus to damage is pretty significant, in comparison to the 1d8+3 that you're otherwise dealing. The only real problem is that it has to compete with +1 AC, which is probably going to win out for anyone who cares enough about AC to choose a shield in the first place. A champion with Dueling and Defense styles is a solid choice that does its job well and is easy to play.

True enough. Dueling seems to me on the cusp, i.e. nearly good enough to take. Maybe it should be proficiency bonus, or +1d4 so that it can crit? As written, it adds about 2/4/5 damage per round (tier 1/2/3). Adding a +d4 would add 2/5/7 with the crit upside. Proficiency would add 2/6/11 damage. (That's all on a one-pristine-round analysis counting on Shieldmaster to sometimes give advantage.) Adding 11 seems to much to me... puts the total too close to GWM's expected, but without the drawbacks.

Protection isn't bad, but it requires situational positioning, which can be hard to manage in narrow corridors. Defense is generally more applicable. It might actually be worth folding those two into each other.

Maybe so. For now, always on +1 AC beats conditionally imposing disadvantage on an attack against an ally.

With TWF it feels like maybe they suffered a bit of ideas fatigue. There should be a prop for that style, but what should it be? Slightly ticking up the average damage seems unexciting and fiddly at the same time.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

With TWF it feels like maybe they suffered a bit of ideas fatigue. There should be a prop for that style, but what should it be? Slightly ticking up the average damage seems unexciting and fiddly at the same time.

That was why I thought maybe making the second attack no longer count as a bonus action, but simply part of the normal attack action.

 

[The Crimson Binome]

For the record, I use the following fighting styles in my game:

• Defense: AC +1, and +2 to all saves
• Duelist: +2 to all attack rolls
• Two- Weapon: +1 to AC and attack rolls, and add damage dice together for every attack.
• Striker: Add proficiency bonus to weapon damage when using a weapon in two hands.

 

[clearstream]

That was why I thought maybe making the second attack no longer count as a bonus action, but simply part of the normal attack action.

This is my homebrew version of Dual Wielder

Dual Wielder
You gain a +1 bonus to AC while you are wielding a separate melee weapon in each hand.
You can use two-weapon fighting even when the one-handed melee weapons you are wielding aren't Light.
The two-weapon fighting attack you make with the melee weapon in your other hand, doesn't require a bonus action.
You can draw or stow two one-handed weapons when you would normally be able to draw or stow only one.

The third element is the changed part. It's not intended to allow two off-hand attacks, but only free your bonus actions for other things. An oversight, but I've never really thought about how this would interact with TWF style. It's giving your damage bonus to one attack... perhaps 2/3/4 by tier after accounting for accuracy. Slightly weaker the Dueling.

GWF is worse, probably, which says something.

For the record, I use the following fighting styles in my game:
Defense: AC +1, and +2 to all saves
Duelist: +2 to all attack rolls
Two- Weapon: +1 to AC and attack rolls, and add damage dice together for every attack.
Striker: Add proficiency bonus to weapon damage when using a weapon in two hands.

For me, those are too strong. For example, my players got the gift of Protection (found in Blingdenstone, in OOTA) which is like a Ring of Protection. One of them later found a Luck Stone, and another got their hands on an actual Ring of Protection. What I then found when estimating encounters for them is that I had to count them one or two levels higher for the DMG guidelines. Your Duelist is crazy-strong. I mean, look what Archery does with Sharpshooter. Your Duelist can stack onto GWM...

GWF is perhaps the poorest fighting style, so of what you have I feel l like Striker is most justified. It is intentional that it will apply to both melee and ranged weapons, right? My take -

Archery - strong as written
Defense - good as written
Dueling - could be 1d4 instead of +2
GWF - not sure, seems very bad as written
Protection - not sure, seems bad as written - might be okay if it didn't use your reaction
TWF - not sure, seems bad as written

Two out of six seem good to me. One on the cusp. Two bad. One very bad. So I do think DMs tweaking for their games is justified in the sense of broadening viable options. I don't think any fighting style needs to be stronger than Archery, and Archery is possibly a little too strong. I also think each style must be tightly worded to apply to the pictured *ahem* fighting style. So Dueling... must apply only to a one-handed fighting style, etc.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I made some changes to the Fighting Styles myself for my current campaign, as well as make them two-tiered... you get the first tier when you normally get it, the second tier 4 levels later (so 1st/5th for fighters, 2nd/6th for paladin/ranger).

• Archery [1st/2nd level]: You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons versus creatures in cover.
• Archery [5th/6th level]: You gain a +2 bonus to attack rolls you make with ranged weapons, and an additional +3 bonus to attack rolls versus creatures in cover.
  .
• Defense [1st/2nd level]: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
• Defense [5th/6th level]: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and no longer suffer disadvantage on stealth checks.
  .
• Dueling [1st/2nd level]: When wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +2 bonus to damage rolls.
• Dueling [5th/6th level]: When wielding a melee weapon in one hand and no other weapons, you gain a +3 bonus to damage rolls.
  .
• Great Weapon Fighting [1st/2nd level]: When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die and must use the new roll, even if the roll is a 1 or a 2.
• Great Weapon Fighting [5th/6th level]: When you roll a 1 or 2 on a damage die for an attack you make with a melee weapon that you are wielding with two hands, you can reroll the die until it no longer is a 1 or 2.
  .
• Protection [1st/2nd level]: When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can use your reaction to impose disadvantage on the attack roll. You must be wielding a shield.
• Protection [5th/6th level]: When a creature you can see attacks a target other than you that is within 5 feet of you, you can impose disadvantage on the attack roll as a free action. You must be wielding a shield.
  .
• Two-Weapon Fighting [1st/2nd level]: When you engage in two-weapon fighting, you can add your ability modifier to the damage of the second attack.
• Two-Weapon Fighting [5th/6th level]: You can dual-wield weapons that do not have the Light property.

I mostly keep things the same for the first tiers, although I do nerf Archery style a little by only letting it apply to creatures in cover, not the +2 to attack for every attack. And I swiped one of the bonuses from the Dual Wielder feat for the TWF style, because I think the style could use it (and I haven't yet bothered to re-power the feat as a result because no one is on track to take it anyway so I haven't had to think about it.) My only edit I have in mind that I'm waiting to see how thing progress before deciding whether to implement it is changing the Dueling style at 5th/6th from a straight +3 to proficiency bonus in damage instead. Since it wouldn't change anything until 9th level (when it'd go from +3 to +4), I haven't really taken a look at whether it needs it.

 

[WhosDaDungeonMaster]

I made some changes to the Fighting Styles myself for my current campaign, as well as make them two-tiered... you get the first tier when you normally get it, the second tier 4 levels later (so 1st/5th for fighters, 2nd/6th for paladin/ranger).

That also isn't a bad idea, tying them into the tiers for the class you gained the style in.

Defense [5th/6th level]: While you are wearing armor, you gain a +2 bonus to AC and no longer suffer disadvantage on stealth checks.

The only suggestion I have would be to remove the stealth thing (since most warrior-types with armor won't be trying stealth moves, at least IMO) and maybe if you house-rule the disadvantage for wearing armor applies to Athletics and such, the better Defense style could remove that? Just a thought.