D&D 5E Finesse Lance

[Voi_D_ragon]

I was thinking, would it be game breaking to make a weapon akin to the lance only with the finesse property?

My take would be

Finesse Lance -Name Pending- Damage: 1d4 (1d6) -Properties: Versatile, Finesse, Reach, Special

Special: if you are mounted, you may use the Versatile damage of this weapon while wielding it with only one hand. You may not use this property if you are holding a weapon in your off hand (so no finesse dual lance wielding gnome shenanigans here)

Seem balanced to you guys? How would you justify a weapon like this flavor-wise?

 

[Satyrn]

I was thinking, would it be game breaking to make a weapon akin to the lance only with the finesse property?

My take would be

Finesse Lance -Name Pending- Damage: 1d4 (1d6) -Properties: Versatile, Finesse, Reach, Special

Special: if you are mounted, you may use the Versatile damage of this weapon while wielding it with only one hand. You may not use this property if you are holding a weapon in your off hand (so no finesse dual lance wielding gnome shenanigans here)

Seem balanced to you guys? How would you justify a weapon like this flavor-wise?

It seems unblanced to me. Why did you cut its damage in half from the standard lance? Finesse isn't a property that the designers consider requires reduced damage.

 

[Satyrn]

Oh, I'm also curious why you prevent dual wielding with this weapon, even though the standard lance allows it.

Are you just super-underpowering it because you think we'll find the idea of a finesse lance too silly to be allowed as a viable option?

 

[TallIan]

From a fluff point of view I don't see why you would have this. An impact weapon like a lance is about running (galloping) in and hitting as hard as possible, rather than using finesse.

From a balance point of view, I have no idea why you take this, it's very weak.

If you are looking for some kind of light cavalry image (a hobilar vs a mounted knight), maybe consider giving javelin or spear the finesse property.

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

It seems unblanced to me. Why did you cut its damage in half from the standard lance? Finesse isn't a property that the designers consider requires reduced damage.

I believe the standard for melee weapons is the longsword (I saw a post calculating this somewhere)

The logic was something like this:

Base martial weapon damage is 1d8, base simple weapon is 1d6

A longsword is 1d8 and versatile (1d10)

A rapier is 1d8 and finesse, but can't ever get to 1d10

So properties acted like so (a +1 is one die size, so 1d8+1=1d10)

Heavy +1
Finesse -1
Light/Thrown 0
Reach -1
Two handed +1

This way, you get to how all weapons are on the table
-Glaive: Martial, Heavy, Two-Handed, Reach= 1d8 +1 +1 -1= 1d10
-Greataxe: Martial, Heavy, Two-Handed= 1d8 +1+1=1d12
-Dagger: Simple, Light, Thrown, Finesse= 1d6 -1/2 -1/2 -1 (1d4 is the smallest a weapon gets)
-Hatchet Simple, Light, Thrown= 1d6 + 0 + 0= 1d6
-Whip: (which is what I was basing myself on) Martial, Finesse, Reach= 1d8 -1 -1= 1d4
-Lance: Martial, Reach, Two-Handed (when not mounted), Special (since the special effect sucks it's a +2 here, [I assume, otherwise the Lance should deal 1d10) because it makes it harder to deal damage and so you deal more]= 1d8 -1 +1 +2 = 1d12

So, if we sum these up, a finesse lance would have

FL: Martial, Finesse, Reach, Two Handed, Special= 1d8 -1 -1 +1 +2 =...1d10 (I got all the way here and realized my mistake, but no way I'm gonna erase all this now)

Well, thank you for pointing out my mistake at least- I was balancing this weapon off the whip, the only other finesse reach weapon in the game so far- however, since that's what I was doing, and I didn't take into account the disadvantage at close range, my calculations were still correct, since, that would take away a +1 from the calculation.

Still, now I have to decide which version to use (although personally I would go for the whip-based one, but that's just because I have a specific build in mind.)

Anyhow, you were right, the Finesse lance would have to deal 1d10 damage if you simply work straight off the rules I listed.

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

Oh, I'm also curious why you prevent dual wielding with this weapon, even though the standard lance allows it.

Are you just super-underpowering it because you think we'll find the idea of a finesse lance too silly to be allowed as a viable option?

Partially, yes. And, as I said, I was thinking more about the whip than the lance when I concocted this, hence the lack of disadvantage within 5 ft. And the whip's damage sucks (but it's still cool and I would use it for a martial character)

 

[Satyrn]

Anyhow, you were right, the Finesse lance would have to deal 1d10 damage if you simply work straight off the rules I listed.

I still think those rules are wrong about finesse.

You've shown that finesse is the equal of versatile, and implied that Versatile is "free."

Oh. They're also wrong about the cost of Light. Light weapons should be -1. Just look at the shortsword and scimitar.

 

[Voi_D_ragon]

I still think those rules are wrong about finesse.

You've shown that finesse is the equal of versatile, and implied that Versatile is "free."

Oh. They're also wrong about the cost of Light. Light weapons should be -1. Just look at the shortsword and scimitar.

Well, that's what I got as a framework, so I worked off of it. It very well may be flawed, or maybe there are just some interactions between properties I overlooked.
Anyway, what would you propose as a stat block for this weapon, since you don't approve of my line of reasoning? (It's cool if you justify it with "This feels right", since whatever works works, but I *tried* to back my stuff up with some sort of science, it's just the type of guy I am.)- I realize the science I used is not compatible with the real world, but we were looking from a game design perspective.

 

[Satyrn]

Well, that's what I got as a framework, so I worked off of it. It very well may be flawed, or maybe there are just some interactions between properties I overlooked.
Anyway, what would you propose as a stat block for this weapon, since you don't approve of my line of reasoning? (It's cool if you justify it with "This feels right", since whatever works works, but I *tried* to back my stuff up with some sort of science, it's just the type of guy I am.)- I realize the science I used is not compatible with the real world, but we were looking from a game design perspective.

Sorry for the diversion. Anyway - I'd use the lance, and tack on the finesse property.

If that feels too good, then I'd drop the damage down to 1d10. And I'd copy the lance's special description verbatim so I don't accidentally make it work some weird wonky way I didn't intend.

 

[Satyrn]

And back to the diversion for a moment.

I think your framework will prove to more accurately reflect the book's weapons with these costs:

Heavy +1
Light -1
Finesse/Versatile/Thrown 0
Reach -1
Two handed +1