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D&D 5E Fire Bolt vs other Wizzard offensive cantrips

ad_hoc

(they/them)
This can't be emphasized enough. There's an arcane tricker in one of my games who uses silent image to create "an opaque, black hemisphere with a diameter of 15 feet." Because he cast the spell and therefore knows that it is an illusion, he can see through it. The end result is constant advantage on attacks, disadvantage on all attacks against him, and it sometimes even uses up an enemy's action as they try to investigate the illusion. Only creatures with blindsight, tremorsense, or truesight are safe from this tactic.

They don't need to spend an action to investigate the illusion. The illusion is broken by the Arcane Trickster when they fire through it.

I would probably give the enemy an Intelligence Saving Throw to see through the illusion immediately too because of how bizarre it is.
 

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Jaelommiss

First Post
They don't need to spend an action to investigate the illusion. The illusion is broken by the Arcane Trickster when they fire through it.

I would probably give the enemy an Intelligence Saving Throw to see through the illusion immediately too because of how bizarre it is.

A black dome is functionally identical to darkness*, with a reduced radius. Objects passing through an illusion reveals that the illusory object are not solid. In most cases this is sufficient evidence to believe it to be illusory since an illusion is generally of a solid object. Since magical darkness is also intangible, there is no reason to believe it is an illusion merely because an object passes through it. Without this major indicator revealing the true nature of the illusion, it incredibly difficult for a casual observer to identify the illusion as such, and therefore takes an action to investigate it. Nothing in silent image's description suggests the spell ends when something touches it.

The way I read the spell description, the first sentence suggests a way to raise doubts regarding an illusion (oh! this door isn't solid). The second is the method to verify those doubts (I think I'll take a closer look at this door to figure out why my hand passed through it). The third is the result of succeeding on the check (it's an illusory door!). If merely touching the illusion was sufficient then anyone could use their environmental interaction to poke the potential illusion instead taking an action to examine it (and bypass any check, too!). It seems odd to me that a spell that outlines an action cost and ability check could be bypassed accidentally.

This is purely my own opinion on the spell, though hopefully it now makes sense why I rule the way I do. I tend to favour anything that helps players rely on interesting ideas rather than endlessly attacking the problem until it goes away, and ruling generously with illusions is one way to do that.

*I have seen some debate over the nature of magical darkness, though the majority tend to agree that it creates a dark bubble that can't been seen through. We operate according to this at my table because arguing about how a spell affects EM radiation is less fun than adventuring.
 

ad_hoc

(they/them)
A black dome is functionally identical to darkness*, with a reduced radius. Objects passing through an illusion reveals that the illusory object are not solid. In most cases this is sufficient evidence to believe it to be illusory since an illusion is generally of a solid object. Since magical darkness is also intangible, there is no reason to believe it is an illusion merely because an object passes through it. Without this major indicator revealing the true nature of the illusion, it incredibly difficult for a casual observer to identify the illusion as such, and therefore takes an action to investigate it. Nothing in silent image's description suggests the spell ends when something touches it.

By that reasoning no amount of investigation can reveal that it is an illusion. Or really, reveal that anything is an illusion, because it could just be some other magical effect.

The way I read the spell description, the first sentence suggests a way to raise doubts regarding an illusion (oh! this door isn't solid). The second is the method to verify those doubts (I think I'll take a closer look at this door to figure out why my hand passed through it). The third is the result of succeeding on the check (it's an illusory door!). If merely touching the illusion was sufficient then anyone could use their environmental interaction to poke the potential illusion instead taking an action to examine it (and bypass any check, too!). It seems odd to me that a spell that outlines an action cost and ability check could be bypassed accidentally.

Physical interaction prompts a check. Firing something through it is interacting with it physically.

This is purely my own opinion on the spell, though hopefully it now makes sense why I rule the way I do. I tend to favour anything that helps players rely on interesting ideas rather than endlessly attacking the problem until it goes away, and ruling generously with illusions is one way to do that.

I suppose I don't find it to be an interesting use of illusion. Using a 1st level spell as a superior version of a 2nd level spell is rules abuse at best. Thankfully, it doesn't work by the rules so it is easy to fix.

The intent of an illusion is to deceive, not duplicate magical effects of higher level spells at will.

*I have seen some debate over the nature of magical darkness, though the majority tend to agree that it creates a dark bubble that can't been seen through. We operate according to this at my table because arguing about how a spell affects EM radiation is less fun than adventuring.

A good rule of thumb to use to figure out whether the rules are being correctly interpreted or working as intended is to think about whether the players would be upset if they were applied against them.

If the enemies used this tactic would the players be okay with it? Or would they feel frustrated and cheated?

Think about how it would affect the game world too. Illusion would be very powerful.



But this is all off topic.

On topic I definitely wouldn't use an attack cantrip as a high elf if my class has other attack cantrips with my main stat.

Vicious Mockery is very good from levels 1-4. After that it suffers from enemies having multiple attacks and a poor increase of damage. Still, you probably have better things to do than Firebolt at level 5 too.
 

Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
By that reasoning no amount of investigation can reveal that it is an illusion. Or really, reveal that anything is an illusion, because it could just be some other magical effect.

The black dome is where someone would realize that is obviously a magic trick of some kind. But an illusion smoke bomb would logically work, and you don't physically interact with smoke until we touch or breathe it (because arrows and rocks would logically fly through smoke), so you could use it from the back rows safely. Right up until something slips past the fighter to smash you with their axe, anyway.
 

pukunui

Legend
It's worth remembering that Intelligence will be the casting stat for your High Elf Cantrip rather than Charisma, so you may want to avoid spells that rely on the casting stat to hit or save.
This. Unless your bard has a high Intelligence, I'd pick a utility cantrip that doesn't require a check or save to use, like mage hand, message, or prestidigitation.
 

Kwalish Kid

Explorer
I mean whats the use of Ray of Frost? Give the target -10 speed while its 60 feet away from u ? Or its even closer ? The target can reach you in a two rounds, but Fire Bolt has 120 feet range!
My group of 1st and 2nd level PCs wrecked an ogre with ray of frost. They slowed it down and were able to keep running it around in circles, hitting it with ranged weapons and keeping out of reach of its attacks.
 

Saeviomagy

Adventurer
A black dome is functionally identical to darkness*, with a reduced radius. Objects passing through an illusion reveals that the illusory object are not solid. In most cases this is sufficient evidence to believe it to be illusory since an illusion is generally of a solid object. Since magical darkness is also intangible, there is no reason to believe it is an illusion merely because an object passes through it. Without this major indicator revealing the true nature of the illusion, it incredibly difficult for a casual observer to identify the illusion as such, and therefore takes an action to investigate it. Nothing in silent image's description suggests the spell ends when something touches it.

Sure it does - the spell specifically says that physical interaction reveals it to be an illusion. Once a creature discerns that it's an illusion, they can see through it. I guess you might argue that things passing through a ball of darkness don't count as physical interaction?
 

discosoc

First Post
Ray of frost is good too, because of how it interacts with difficult terrain. -10 speed is one thing, but if they have to cross difficult terrain in combat, that gets doubled. Yes, Fire Bolt has a longer range, but it's kind of rare to see combat engagement really start out that far, and if it's in the dark, dim light, or underground, you might not even be able to see them.

And in terms of damage, it's really just a difference of 1 point per dice.
 

JiffyPopTart

Bree-Yark
RE: Ray of Frost

This is my campaign wizard's goto combat cantrip. It is almost always used to trip up a bad guy trying to make an escape. The -10 becomes -20 if the bad guy is dashing away, which gives the party that little bit of extra oomph needed to reach them.

This is worth way more than a few extra points of damage IMHO.
 

Fralex

Explorer
I am not the caster, I am pure support. We have a sorceress with ourself, a Drow which has 3 additional spells :| Damn the unbalance race ! X-(

From Bard Cantrips I got :
Mending
Vicious Mockery
Light
Mage Hand

Wait, did you choose all four of these cantrips for your bard? Because at first level you only get two bard cantrips. You do start off with four 1st-level spells as a bard though, that might've caused the confusion.

Also, something useful to think about: Three of those four spells you listed are also wizard spells. So if you wanted, you could pick one of those as your elf cantrip, and then it'd be like getting an extra bard cantrip!
 

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